Hi,

I had never heard of CAZ until one day as I was driving along in London (Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham), my Tom tom go 6200 advised me to turn into a side road which I did. As I started to drive down this road I noticed a sign indicating that I couldn't ! I panicked but as I was near the main road and had made the manouevre and was on the side road I had no choice but to continue. (I was hesitant and worried). 2 weeks later I received a Fine (PCN) and was totally shocked ( £80charge or £160 after 28 days). I was furious and phoned the no and was advised I had 2 choices Pay or Not! I reluctantly paid. I phoned Tom tom and they said that I did not have a 2nd gen model so it couldn't advise me? I wrote a complaint e mail to the borough but they haven't bothered to conatct me. I want to take this furthur and make an official complaint on the grounds that my car is a 999cc and surely driving down that road, I should not have been penalised??? I went on to Gov.uk and there was thought there that a caz is similar to ulez and if my car is ulez compatible I should have been ok? I phoned the Caz support team and they agreed with my thoughts I also put my no plate in and all was ok ie ulez compatible ( bytw you won't believe that the borough is the only one in London doing this). I also obtained a Certificate of Conformity from Ford and it's my opinion that I should not have neen charged .TFL were useless and said the fine had nothing to do with them ; it was the borough who issued the penalty. Unacceptable but a typical fob off.

Does anyone have any thoughts, ideas recommendations on what I should/could do , please?  

18 minutes ago, fiesta boy said:

 Does anyone have any thoughts, ideas recommendations on what I should/could do , please?  

1)   Stay out of London. Under Khan it's become a cesspit for the motorist, and with 1000 phones nicked/week, not great for pedestrians either.

2)   Get an updated SatNav that will give you proper notification of such daylight robbery.

3)    Try and get over the shock of being mugged. Festering over it will do your mental health no good whatsoever.

4)     Don't go down the rabbit hole of trying to appeal the decision. Just put it down to experience. You'll be up against a hugely well funded bureaucracy that is expert on extracting money from the public, and all computers will say, 'no'...

 

7 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

1)   Stay out of London. Under Khan it's become a cesspit for the motorist, and with 1000 phones nicked/week, not great for pedestrians either.

2)   Get an updated SatNav that will give you proper notification of such daylight robbery.

3)    Try and get over the shock of being mugged. Festering over it will do your mental health no good whatsoever.

4)     Don't go down the rabbit hole of trying to appeal the decision. Just put it down to experience. You'll be up against a hugely well funded bureaucracy that is expert on extracting money from the public, and all computers will say, 'no'...

 

Thank you. Much appreciated.

The Clean Air Zone isn't about the specific emissions that your car produces in this case.

It's about keeping non-residents out of that area.

If you don't live there, and don't have a visitor permit, then I'm afraid you were in the wrong here and were fined correctly.

2 hours ago, StephenFord said:

Under Khan it's become

Sir Khan please !!

Show the extortionist the respect he deserves 🤣 

you *could* take this court and plead your case, but I don't think "I did't follow the instructions of the street signs and just blindly followed my sat nav" would work. You never know though.

 

it's an expensive lesson, but I guess you will follow road signs rather than your sat nav in future.

 

Not sure if clean air zones are a thing. I drive in London almost daily. There are clean air neighbourhoods and this thing that stops people blindly following sat navs and creating rat runs.

https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/clean-air-neighbourhoods/south-fulham-clean-air-neighbourhood

Looks like you got stung in one of these?

 

Not a fan of them. If residents want other drivers not to use their roads, then the road should become unadopted and the maintenance paid for by the residents only. They seem to be able to having their cake AND eat it. But that's the posh areas for you. If you are unlucky enough to live in a sh1th0le the council couldn't care less.

3 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

The Clean Air Zone isn't about the specific emissions that your car produces in this case.

It's about keeping non-residents out of that area.

If you don't live there, and don't have a visitor permit, then I'm afraid you were in the wrong here and were fined correctly.

Many Thanks for that. Designed to keep cars off the road/s or are motorists supposed to be cash cows? Life, eh?

1 hour ago, unofix said:

Sir Khan please !!

Show the extortionist the respect he deserves 🤣 

Total joker. He doesn't drive but get's chauffeur driven . I saw him once, while shopping. His body guards were nearby. I will tell you something for nothing. He was driven at speed and was driven through a red traffic light. One rule doesn't fit all, eh?

32 minutes ago, weesam said:

you *could* take this court and plead your case, but I don't think "I did't follow the instructions of the street signs and just blindly followed my sat nav" would work. You never know though.

 

it's an expensive lesson, but I guess you will follow road signs rather than your sat nav in future.

 

Not sure if clean air zones are a thing. I drive in London almost daily. There are clean air neighbourhoods and this thing that stops people blindly following sat navs and creating rat runs.

https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/clean-air-neighbourhoods/south-fulham-clean-air-neighbourhood

Looks like you got stung in one of these?

 

Not a fan of them. If residents want other drivers not to use their roads, then the road should become unadopted and the maintenance paid for by the residents only. They seem to be able to having their cake AND eat it. But that's the posh areas for you. If you are unlucky enough to live in a sh1th0le the council couldn't care less.

I like your style and your sound logic, especially the last para- no chance that that will ever happen. Thanks for advising about clean air neighbourhoods. I can tell you I feel very bitter but hey ho , at least I'm still living and not 6 feet under. Imagine that once you pop your clogs, you are then told, Sorry but you didn't live in the right neighbourhood. Get back to where you belong 

5 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

The Clean Air Zone isn't about the specific emissions that your car produces in this case.

It's about keeping non-residents out of that area.

If you don't live there, and don't have a visitor permit, then I'm afraid you were in the wrong here and were fined correctly.

 

1 hour ago, fiesta boy said:

Total joker. He doesn't drive but get's chauffeur driven .

He gets driven in a £400,000 Range Rover that is bomb proof. I'm sure it gets great fuel economy, and emits nothing more than fairy dust...

4 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

Range Rover that is bomb proof.

Do they still do the testing of that over in NI, or has even that industry been closed down ? 🤣

6 minutes ago, unofix said:

Do they still do the testing of that over in NI, or has even that industry been closed down ? 🤣

Invite has been sent, but still awaiting the RSVP 🤣

Are you sure it was a clean air zone (CAZ), or was it an LTN (low traffic neighbourhood)?

On 6/19/2025 at 8:20 PM, Alan G H said:

Are you sure it was a clean air zone (CAZ), or was it an LTN (low traffic neighbourhood)?

Good question. I received a PCN and it indicated "you are liable to pay a PC with respect to the vehicle for the following alleged traffic contravention : 52M- Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (m) motor vehicles"

It's a Clean Air Neighbourhood.  

Clean Air Neighbourhoods | London Borough of Hammersmith & Fulham

23 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

It's a Clean Air Neighbourhood.  

Clean Air Neighbourhoods | London Borough of Hammersmith & Fulham

 

23 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

It's a Clean Air Neighbourhood.  

Clean Air Neighbourhoods | London Borough of Hammersmith & Fulham

Thank You Tom, I am grateful. Kindly clarify for me as I am confused. Given that Andrew asked me a question and I explained what was written i.e  52M- Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (m) motor vehicles". Are you thus advising me that it was a clean air zone that I entered? ( I get the impression that's what you are indicating and confirms that I may have been right?

Again Thanks for your impending answer.

4 minutes ago, fiesta boy said:

Thank You Tom, I am grateful. Kindly clarify for me as I am confused. Given that Andrew asked me a question and I explained what was written i.e  52M- Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (m) motor vehicles". Are you thus advising me that it was a clean air zone that I entered? ( I get the impression that's what you are indicating and confirms that I may have been right?

Again Thanks for your impending answer.

My first reply still stands I'm afraid.  This particular scheme is purely about keeping non-residents out of the area.  It's not about the type of car that you drive.  Though I agree that PCN is worded badly.

This isn't technically a Clean Air Zone or a Low Traffic Neighbourhood.  It's a Clean Air Neighbourhood which incorporates different strategies for reducing pollution across the district.  One of which is to fine any non-locals that use certain roads in the area.

It is all covered on that website, though there are so many pages I only read a few of them myself.  If I am wrong then hopefully someone else can confirm.

see my reply earlier up this thread which gives a link to the Traffic "scheme".

 

Posh people want quiet streets and have the clout to ensure it.

 

I reckon a suitably belligerent lawyer (like Mr Loophole) could get you out of paying that ticket if it is worded as a clean air zone or worded as anything other than it actually is.

 

You could take your chance and have your day in court if the fine is not going to increase that much if the judgment goes against you and you want to prove a point.  (THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE I AM NOT A LAWYER)

2 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

My first reply still stands I'm afraid.  This particular scheme is purely about keeping non-residents out of the area.  It's not about the type of car that you drive.  Though I agree that PCN is worded badly.

This isn't technically a Clean Air Zone or a Low Traffic Neighbourhood.  It's a Clean Air Neighbourhood which incorporates different strategies for reducing pollution across the district.  One of which is to fine any non-locals that use certain roads in the area.

It is all covered on that website, though there are so many pages I only read a few of them myself.  If I am wrong then hopefully someone else can confirm.

Thank you Tom. 2 weeks ago, I wrote to the borough and they have not had the decency of replying . S...S! Thanks for your explanation of it being neither a Caz/LTA and for advising me that it's to fine any non-locals that use certain roads in the area. Yes, if you are right I have no chance. P.S I've already paid the fine but I want them to explain to me for sure , why I was fined ? 

2 hours ago, weesam said:

see my reply earlier up this thread which gives a link to the Traffic "scheme".

 

Posh people want quiet streets and have the clout to ensure it.

 

I reckon a suitably belligerent lawyer (like Mr Loophole) could get you out of paying that ticket if it is worded as a clean air zone or worded as anything other than it actually is.

 

You could take your chance and have your day in court if the fine is not going to increase that much if the judgment goes against you and you want to prove a point.  (THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE I AM NOT A LAWYER)

Thanks Weesam. I will check the thread again and see if I can find anything. I know for sure I am not Posh. LOL.

I don't particularly wish to go to court. I paid "Just Answer" £10 and the most important thing I wish to do is 1. Find out if they will charge me more, if I go back to them? If they say Yes, I will say I don't wish to pay more and go it alone?. After all I am not made of money and will not pay anymore , as I have technically paid £80 for the Fine and £10 to Just Answer = £90. I technically want to push the borough to explain exactly why I was fined. People may say /think why is he doing this? I am doing this because I in my opinion "did no wrong" and I am incensed that I was fined. (How many people did I harm, by driving down that road)?

You could go the Freedom of Information route.

https://www.gov.uk/make-a-freedom-of-information-request

You have to be VERY precise and VERY concise in your request.

Any possible ambiguity will give them wiggle room to either waffle or just refuse to answer saying your question falls out of the remit of the Act.

If you are not willing to pay anymore, then I think you just have to let it go, and put it down to experience.

These sorts of fines rely on the masses paying them. If we all refused the fines would go away, they are not going to take hundreds of thousands of people to court. But they (the councils, private parking firms etc) prey on people's fear. Nobody wants to get into trouble so they go along with what is basically extortion. Maybe somebody with deeper pockets will test the legality or not of these schemes in court.

Always take AI with a pinch of salt, but it can help you look in the right direction:

 

🏛️ Landmark High Court Ruling: West Dulwich (May 2025)

• West Dulwich Action Group vs Lambeth Council challenged an 18-month trial LTN in south London.

• The High Court (Deputy Judge Tim Smith) ruled the scheme unlawful, not because LTNs are inherently illegal, but because Lambeth Council failed to consider a detailed 53-page submission from residents during consultation – a “serious failing” theguardian.com+15bbc.co.uk+15standard.co.uk+15.

• It found councils must genuinely engage with substantial community input — especially new evidence — even under an Experimental Traffic Order brixtonbuzz.com+2hammersmithsociety.org.uk+2brownejacobson.com+2.

• A recent follow-up ordered Lambeth to dismantle the LTN, as it failed this procedural testthetimes.co.uk+1brixtonbuzz.com+1.

---

Hammersmith & Fulham’s Scheme: Challenges but No Court Ruling

• H&F implemented its “Clean Air Neighbourhood” in December 2022, enforced with CCTV fines on non‑local drivers thetimes.co.uk+15standard.co.uk+15bbc.co.uk+15.

• A Market Research Society investigation concluded the survey used to justify it breached industry standards, including leading questions and misleading information reddit.com+7standard.co.uk+7bbc.co.uk+7.

• That finding underlines serious engagement flaws, similar to those in West Dulwich — but no legal case has reached court against H&F’s specific LTN yet.

---

⚖️ What This Means

1. Precedent is strong: Courts can and do strike down LTNs for procedural failures, even if the overall policy is lawful.

2. Consultation legitimacy is key: Councils must genuinely consider community evidence, not just tick a box.

3. H&F is under the microscope: Given the MRS findings, H&F’s consultation could be vulnerable if challenged. A legal case would likely follow the West Dulwich template.

---

✅ Bottom Line

• Yes, LTNs and Clean Air Neighbourhoods have been tested in court — with West Dulwich overturned due to procedural failings.

• No, Hammersmith & Fulham's LTN hasn’t been legally challenged in court yet — but its flawed consultation makes one possible in future.

Let me know if you'd like a deep dive into the West Dulwich Judgment or guidance on how one might legally challenge the H&F scheme.

26 minutes ago, weesam said:

Always take AI with a pinch of salt, but it can help you look in the right direction:

 

 

🏛️ Landmark High Court Ruling: West Dulwich (May 2025)

• West Dulwich Action Group vs Lambeth Council challenged an 18-month trial LTN in south London.

• The High Court (Deputy Judge Tim Smith) ruled the scheme unlawful, not because LTNs are inherently illegal, but because Lambeth Council failed to consider a detailed 53-page submission from residents during consultation – a “serious failing” theguardian.com+15bbc.co.uk+15standard.co.uk+15.

• It found councils must genuinely engage with substantial community input — especially new evidence — even under an Experimental Traffic Order brixtonbuzz.com+2hammersmithsociety.org.uk+2brownejacobson.com+2.

• A recent follow-up ordered Lambeth to dismantle the LTN, as it failed this procedural testthetimes.co.uk+1brixtonbuzz.com+1.

---

Hammersmith & Fulham’s Scheme: Challenges but No Court Ruling

• H&F implemented its “Clean Air Neighbourhood” in December 2022, enforced with CCTV fines on non‑local drivers thetimes.co.uk+15standard.co.uk+15bbc.co.uk+15.

• A Market Research Society investigation concluded the survey used to justify it breached industry standards, including leading questions and misleading information reddit.com+7standard.co.uk+7bbc.co.uk+7.

• That finding underlines serious engagement flaws, similar to those in West Dulwich — but no legal case has reached court against H&F’s specific LTN yet.

---

⚖️ What This Means

1. Precedent is strong: Courts can and do strike down LTNs for procedural failures, even if the overall policy is lawful.

2. Consultation legitimacy is key: Councils must genuinely consider community evidence, not just tick a box.

3. H&F is under the microscope: Given the MRS findings, H&F’s consultation could be vulnerable if challenged. A legal case would likely follow the West Dulwich template.

---

✅ Bottom Line

• Yes, LTNs and Clean Air Neighbourhoods have been tested in court — with West Dulwich overturned due to procedural failings.

• No, Hammersmith & Fulham's LTN hasn’t been legally challenged in court yet — but its flawed consultation makes one possible in future.

Let me know if you'd like a deep dive into the West Dulwich Judgment or guidance on how one might legally challenge the H&F scheme.

Weesam, it was ever so good of you to do all that you did. I went through the link you advised me of and I have summarised below. Thanks to all who encouraged me to drop it and passed  sound advice too. 

• As part of the Clean Air Neighbourhood prog. urban designers are now working with residents& businesses in making the area greener & attractive.
• The project has enabled residents to take control of local streets which had become flooded with traffic – 90 per cent of which was made up of out-of-borough motorists largely.
• The decades-old and& seemingly unmanageable traffic problem has been made worse in recent years by increased use of satnav systems directing arterial road traffic to cut through narrow residential streets.
• The project, which was developed by the council working with residents, uses the latest Anpr technology to end this problem.
• All H&F residents can drive through cameras
• The Clean Air Neighbourhood discourages out-of-borough motorists from using residential streets as commuter cut-throughs using smart technology cameras, thereby reduces pollution &congestion.
• The maps show how anpr cameras have been carefully positioned to stop non-H&F drivers using the most popular cut throughs.
• All residents of the borough with an H&F registered vehicle, wherever you live in the borough, can go through the Clean Air Neighbourhood cameras without penalty.

So in the end I will drop it and I will get back in touch with Just Answer, too and copy them the same. With the info, I shall see what they say but I will not be spending anymore.

Thanks all. That's me gone ! tail between my legs and all that

 

 

2 hours ago, fiesta boy said:

Thank you Tom. 2 weeks ago, I wrote to the borough and they have not had the decency of replying . ...

It always bemuses me the expectations that some folk have of writing to a local authority. I have worked for 2 in my career. (population of town served around 40,000). The mail received on a weekly basis is usually quite large. Then, 'your' letter has to be placed on the right desk. Then, there's a chance that person is on leave, or off sick. Then, once a response is drafted, it usually has to be fact checked internally by someone senior as a 'council' letter has all sorts of legal connotations. 2 weeks is a very short amount of time.

If that matter is urgent, much better to phone the office and ask who is the best person to address your query to. Sometimes, even a quick chat on the phone can aid a solution.

I'm no fan of local bureaucracy, but you should give them a chance...