Cutting Out

[SDCarter1976]

Hi All

Newbie to this thread. So apologies if posted in the wrong place.

 

Ford Fiesta LX, 3 Door, Petrol, 1242cc, 03 plate.

Had the car off brother about 12 months ago and it was clear he has never bothered to look after it. never serviced or changed anything.

that said it ran fine and had no issues whatsoever.

however....

Past few weeks or so now the car has been struggling with the idle. jumping between 750 and 1000. First though was idle control valve. After looking on multiple sites i came to the conclusion that this was probably the main cause. Then i found out that this was apparently inside the throttle body on these cars.

So after removing the air intake thing i managed to find the throttle body and cleaned it the best I could while still on car. only used WD40 though as i dont have any throttle body cleaner until i can get to Halfords at weekend.

put it all back together and nothing seemed to change. if anything it was probably worse.

Then i found a site mentioning the MAF or MAP filter? I managed to get this off and again cleaned it the best I could. With the incorrect stuff. So will be getting electrical contact cleaner at weekend.

Tried it a for a few miles and now every time i come to a junction it loses all revs and cuts out, steering goes very heavy and just does nothing. Starts when turning key and then cuts out.

I also seems to lose power when changing gears. Revs drop very low and stalls.

Not sure how to proceed.

any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Simon

Edited June 20, 2016 by SDCarter1976
Inserted car details

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, SDCarter1976 said:

struggling with the idle. jumping between 750 and 1000. First though was idle control valve

Idle control sounds like the first suspect.  You probably need to get the thing out to clean it properly, oil (from the crankcase breather system) can get right up inside.

My 1998 Vectra had a sticking Idle valve, the 1st time I cleaned it it worked for a while, then packed up again. It was well gunked up with sticky oil residues. I cleaned it again, more thoroughly using alchohol (IPA, but meths would also probably do), making sure it got well up inside the hidden parts. Re-fitted it & it was fine.

If there were significant problems with the MAF or MAP, I would expect the engine management light to come on.

Someone else has a similar problem. See

Peter

PS I am not sure I would want to buy a car from your brother!. If the oil has not been changed lately, that is well worth doing now.

[SDCarter1976]

Hi Peter

Cheers for quick reply.

I have attached a few images. One of the engine, the other two of the throttle body. Also a pic of one i found on Goog Images.

When you say take throttle body off car, is it a case of just the 4 bolts that are holding it on or are there any other bolts i need to be aware of?

Also, once off the car, do i need to removed the black plastic cover thing and clean in there also?

Cheers

Si

[Tdci-Peter]

Looking at pictures of this part, I am suspecting there is no separate idle valve.

I presume there is no bowden cable or mechanical connection to this unit, only the one wiring plug.

The round cylinder on the right looks like an electric motor, driving the throttle plate directly through gears under the plastic housing.

Either the motor could be a stepper motor, in which case the electrical connector may have four (used) pins.

Or it could be an ordinary motor, with a pot for position feedback. Then there would usually be 5 (used) pins on the connector.

The idle is obtained by small adjustments of the main throttle in this type of unit. Any fault in the electric parts (and feedback pots are particularly subject to faults), will cause positioning errors on the plate, and uneven idle.

Mechanical problems (wear or sticking shafts) are still possible, but electrical problems are more likely.

I guess you have tried unplugging the connector, inspecting it for dirt/damp/corrosion (what bits you can see of it), and re-inserting it.

Repair may be possible, I once repaired the EGR valve in my car, which used a similar motor & pot arrangement, but it may not be very easy.

A second hand unit is not too expensive, and may at least help to verify that the throttle valve is the problem.

Re Removal: Sorry, I can not help. A Haynes book would describe it, or there may be a youtube or similar. It looks as if it should be quite straightforward if you can actually get to it. That is usually the hardest part.

Peter.

[SDCarter1976]

Cheers Peter

Quick update.

After a very shaky start this morning (relatively warmish weather by me considering) I thought that it may have some how managed to fix itself over night.

Wrong!

Started fine, for about 3 seconds, then died on me. Great! Was already late for work as it was. It starts no problem, just doesn't hold the revs and cut out.

Anyway, started again, this time gave it a few extra revs to keep it going. Seemed to do the trick until i got to the first junction. Praying there was no traffic so I wouldn't have to stop and would you believe it, the worst traffic i have seen for a while, by me at least. That was it. Slowed down as gentle as I could. Stopped. Cut out.

I felt like doing a Basiil Fawlty on it and give it a damn good thrashing!

Anyway, traffic went and i managed to get to work without stopping (and on time). Result.

so, ten minutes into the day and it started to eat away at me, got to half day and I thought sod it, im off to buy some proper cleaning stuff to see if it does any good.

Off to Halfords I go, purchased some carb cleaner (see image) and some electrical cleaner (see image), not too bad for £11, probably get cheaper from any good car store I guess.

Got back, got every tool from the shed I could lay my hands on, most of which were no fit for purpose but did the job.

So.... (few images attached)

Flipped the hood. Took the outlet hose off from the top first, part attached to filter box, then removed the lower part from the throttle body. Couple of hose clips holding them on. Bit awkward to get to lower clip but managed it.

Tried to unbolt the TB. No chance. Not strong enough and not having the right tools didn't help. I though great, failed at the first hurdle.

Feeling a bit pee'd off about it, I thought, well I may as well clean as many electric plus as I could get to. Unplugged a few, especially the ones attached to the TB and gave them a good spray with electrical contact cleaner, let the dry, put back together.

As it then happened, my neighbor came back, who tinkers with motors and he said why not just spray the carb cleaner into the throttle body with the engine running? The crap that it clear from inside the TB will just get burned off and thrown out the back of the exhaust.

Started the car. Kept it at about 2500 revs whilst neighbour sprayed the carb cleaner into the TB. After letting go of the accelerator it would cut off and struggle to start for a few times, but kept going and eventually, all the smoke and stink that the engine kicked out of the exhaust disappeared and the idle was steady.Let in run for about 5 mins then i turned it off.

Put all the parts back together making sure i didn't forget anything. Took it for spin on normal roads by me, only cut out once.

Got back home. Left it for half hour. Took it out again. Magic!!! No cut outs. Idles normal. somehow seems to pull better to.

Today being quite warm Im still not convinced. Will try again in morning and update this forum from work.

If all is good then i will be well happy.

Just want to say a big thanks to Peter for the advice. it is much appreciated.

Keep your fingers crossed for me. Hopefully the £11 I spent and 1 hours work on the motor may have saved me a small fortune.

Will update again tomorrow mornig.

Images to follow this post. Apologies if ive calls parts by the wrong name. Im not mechanically minded,

Cheers

Simon

PS. For a car that I didn't pay for (free from brother in-law), not being looked after for many years, never had oil or filter change (my next job BTW) I can't really complain.

 

[Tdci-Peter]

Really good news so far! Hope it stays that way.

Looks like it was the throttle plate or shaft sticking.

Some decent sockets & spanners etc. may be a very good investment. I have often struggled for ages with inadequate tools, then tried the proper tool and it does the job almost easily! Makes a huge difference.

Well, if the car was free you can't complain, and at least spares for Fords are usually cheaper than for most other makes.

With a 13 year old car that has been a bit uncared for, you may be needing the good tools & some spares, unfortunately. They say there is no such thing as a free lunch, or a free car for that matter.

But I hope, with a bit of care & attention, you will get quite a few more miles out of the beast yet!

Peter.

 

[SDCarter1976]

Hi Peter

Morning Update.

Cold and damp where I live this morning. Walked over to car thinking all would be ok. No.

Turned it over, started no problem, then cut out. Great. Thought it may be just a bit of residue left from last nights quick clean. Started again but with a few revs, seemed ok.

Travelling to work, the thing cut out on me a few times, same as before, when changing gears the revs drop off completely and slowing down coming to junctions and stopping the revs just seem to die and it cuts out, but started again with key no problem, again had to keep revs on a bit.

So, im now thinking, did I clean the throttle body enough? or is there something else I should be looking for?

I've read on numerous places on the interweb, but there are so many suggestions im not sure where to begin now?

Some say, speed sensor in gearbox? some say spark plugs? others say faulty battery. majority seem to think the TB is still the main culprit.

Managed to get to work ok. turned it off for a while. then started it again. no issues starting this time, possibly because it was still a bit warm.

Little worried about it now.

Any ideas?

Cheers

Si

[Tdci-Peter]

4 hours ago, SDCarter1976 said:

Cold and damp where I live this morning. Walked over to car thinking all would be ok. No.

Turned it over, started no problem, then cut out

Cold, damp conditions are certainly linked to ignition problems, but usually only when the engine is cold. Typically this sort of problem goes away as the engine warms up. And this engine cuts out when cold or hot, I believe.

I tend to go with the majority view, TB is suspect no.1. I was pleased, but a little surprised to hear of the success with the cleaner. Looking at the photos of the TB, I had put electrical problems as being more likely. Intermittent electrical problems are a pig, they always disappear into hiding when you go near them, then pop out again when you least expect, or want, it.

My advice: Get a 2nd hand TB off eBay (Pref one that the seller claims to have tested), Check just what the best tools to access the bolts are, and get (or borrow) them. Or find a small local garage or car repair person to fit it.

These units look as if they should be relatively easy to test, but would need some electrical test equipment & some experience. Probably best to replace it, and hope the replacement does not have the same symptoms!

Peter.