On 2/24/2025 at 8:13 PM, StephenFord said:

EVs are perfect

Look what a bit of selective editing can do!

But seriously, if one works for you better than any alternative, that's great. If I come to that conclusion myself, I'll go for it, but (and this is the point I was trying to get across to my MP) I don't expect the taxpayer to subsidise my choice of car. Nor do I expect a car manufacturer to be penalised for failing to sell me one.

17 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

... if one works for you better than any alternative, that's great...

If you read back the 136 pages of this thread, I have never been 'against' EVs. Quite prepared to concede they give a great driving experience, exhilarating acceleration, tons of gizmos, etc etc

The PRIMARY objection is that government (who serve the people), have mandated that we must have one, they have taken away freedom of choice and have hugely screwed with a totally free market. If you want one, you should be able to buy one, if you don't, the government should not remove alternatives. Thank goodness for Trump's reversal on EV legislation...

Drill baby, drill...

Credit CNET

 It Costs a Lot to Replace EV Batteries, but How Often Do You Need to?

Battery technology has made significant strides. With modern EV batteries now lasting over 100,000 miles, you might not feel the need to replace them.
Antuan Goodwin/CNET

Electric vehicles are becoming more affordable each year, with purchase prices now nearing those of gas-powered cars, as reported by the Washington Post.

However, the debate between EVs and internal combustion engine vehicles continues to heat up, especially on platforms such as Reddit, where users compare the total cost of ownership for both types of vehicles over time. In these rough calculations, EVs often come out as the cheaper choice. But one sticking point for potential EV buyers remains the cost of replacing the battery.

A recent study suggests that fewer than 13% of vehicles from 2015 and before had undergone battery replacements. This figure went down to under 1% for cars from 2016 and above. This raises the question: Are electric vehicles truly the better deal when you factor in the cost of a replacement battery? We spoke to a battery expert to get insight on how much it costs to replace an EV battery and whether EVs or ICE cars offer the best long-term value.
How much does it cost to replace an EV's battery?

A new EV battery can cost between $10,000 and $20,000 depending on the make and model, said Nadim Maluf, CEO and one of the founders of Qnovo, a company that develops software to optimize battery performance.

"The cost to replace an EV battery is not cheap," Maluf said. "But that doesn't mean you have this big expense coming down the pike." In fact, he said, the possibility of replacing the battery doesn't necessarily result in a higher cost over the life of an electric vehicle. That's because today's battery packs last so long that you probably won't need one, he said.
How long do EV batteries last?

Batteries don't last forever, but large batteries tend to last longer than your typical cheap AAA.

"Batteries have improved a lot in the last decade, and they continue to improve," Maluf said. Although most carmakers provide warranties of eight years or 100,000 miles for the batteries in their EVs, today's technology means longer warranties of 150,000 miles or more are possible in the near future, he said.

With longer-lasting batteries as the industry standard, it's becoming less likely an EV owner will own the car long enough to need a replacement battery.  "I believe that the vast majority of consumers would get rid of their car before they'd need to change the battery," Maluf said. "If you're buying from a reputable carmaker, it's highly unlikely that you're going to need to change the battery, unless there's a defect, but that's a warranty issue."

If the average car buyer keeps a vehicle for around 12 years — and drives it anywhere from 100,000 to 150,000 miles — there's a good chance they'll upgrade before running into battery issues. The average age of a car or light truck on US roads is 12.6 years, a report by S&P Global Mobility found earlier this year.

Plus, there are best practices for extending the life of an EV battery, such as minimizing the use of fast charging, keeping the battery between 20% and 80% charged, avoiding storing it empty, and minimizing exposure to high temperatures.

If you're buying a used EV, the cost of replacing the battery does come into play more so than someone buying a new EV. But lower prices for preowned EVs versus new, coupled with incentives of up to $4,000 from the Inflation Reduction Act, add up to significant savings that can outweigh the cost of a replacement battery.
Battery replacement cost trends

The cost of EV batteries has gone down over time. Cost per kilowatt-hour for the lithium-ion battery packs that power EVs dropped significantly in recent years, from $1,355 per kilowatt-hour in 2008 to $153 per kilowatt-hour in 2022, according to the US Department of Energy. The advancements in battery technology and increase in production that have caused the cost of EV batteries to drop have helped bring down the overall price of electric vehicles.

In fact, Maluf said, industry shifts point to replacement batteries becoming a thing of the past. "I think the idea of replacing an EV battery is going to vanish over time. The trend going forward is what's called cell-to-chassis, where the battery is put into the chassis on day one," he said, comparing this development to Apple making replacement cell phone batteries obsolete with the iPhone.

"Five years from now, replacing the battery is going to be very tough, if not impossible. The carmakers are going to make the battery last so long that you don't have to replace it," Maluf said, noting that this shift toward longer lasting, safer and more reliable EV batteries is already in progress.
Factors that go into battery replacement costs

These are some of the factors beyond manufacturing costs that contribute to the price of a replacement EV battery.
Make

EVs from different makers will each come with their own battery replacement costs. Estimates to replace the battery in older Nissan Leafs that are out of warranty range between $5,500 and $7,500, while replacement batteries for Teslas start at $13,000.
Model

Battery replacement costs can vary between models. Here's a look at the battery replacement costs of three different Teslas.

Tesla
    

Battery replacement cost (including labor)
    

Warranty

Model S
    

    $13,000-$20,000

    

8 years or 150,000 miles

Model X premium SUV
    

    At least $14,000

    

8 years or 150,000 miles

Model 3 sedan
    

    At least $13,000

    

8 years or 100,000 miles

8 years or 120,000 miles for Model 3 Long Range
Battery size

The size of an EV battery is one of the biggest factors in the cost to replace it. For instance, Hyundai's Kona Electric crossover is available with a 48.6 kilowatt-hour battery that has a range of around 200 miles, or with a larger 64.8 kilowatt-hour battery that has a range of 260 miles.

An EV like the Ford F-150 Lightning Extended Range, on the other hand, has a 141 kilowatt-hour battery that will take this much larger truck about 320 miles. The more powerful, long-range battery for a larger vehicle will cost considerably more to replace than the battery for a smaller EV.
Labor costs

Replacing an EV battery is a difficult and highly technical job, not the kind of thing your average neighborhood auto mechanic can handle.

"You'll need to take it to the carmaker for safety reasons, integration, complexity, the right assembly, the right software," Maluf said.
Battery recycling

EV makers must factor the cost of disposing old EV batteries into the cost of new ones. Recycling EV batteries can be a complicated and expensive process, adding to the overall replacement cost for car owners.

"EV batteries are still relatively new, but many of the old batteries from the Nissan Leaf went to landfills, resale or shredding for potential recycling," Maluf said. "It's still a small volume today but will become a bigger problem as EVs begin to reach the end of their lives."
Margins

On top of all those costs, the manufacturer and dealer need to make a profit on the EV battery and services they provide, increasing the cost of a replacement.
The bottom line: Is getting an EV still worth it?

When you factor in the replacement battery cost for an EV, is going electric more cost-effective than buying a gas-powered car?

Those Reddit users who estimated that the lifetime cost of an EV is likely to be less than that of an ICE vehicle are right. And of course the increasingly unlikely possibility that you'll need to replace the battery doesn't change that estimate.

The cost of ownership over the life of any car consists of the initial purchase price, the cost to fuel it, and the cost of maintenance. As price parity for EVs and ICE vehicles has increased, acquisition cost has become less of a factor. The cost to fuel a vehicle with gas is generally more expensive than charging an EV, though prices per gallon of gas and per kilowatt-hour of electricity vary from state to state and change over time.

That leaves maintenance, which, even with the potential cost of a replacement EV battery, is typically more expensive for an ICE vehicle. Overall, battery-powered cars require less maintenance than ICE cars, according to the US Department of Energy. Unlike gas-powered cars, EVs don't need oil changes, and there's much less wear and tear on their brakes, according to the agency.

For Maluf, the answer to whether EVs are still worth it is clear. "Absolutely," he said. "Especially today, when there are so many incentives to buy an EV."
FAQ

Will my car insurance cover the cost of an EV battery?

Many traditional car insurance policies don't cover the cost to replace an EV battery, though some insurers might offer EV-focused policies that do. EV insurance policies can cost up to 20 percent more than insurance for gas-powered vehicles, but some major insurers offer discounts specific to EV drivers.

Will my EV battery be covered by my warranty?

EV battery warranties are typically separate from your EV's bumper-to-bumper warranty, but the details of that coverage vary by manufacturer. Some manufacturers require an EV battery to fail completely before they'll replace it, while others will cover the replacement during the warranty period if the battery's capacity falls below a certain percentage.

What is the lifespan of an EV battery?

Modern EV batteries can last 15 to 20 years and delivering about 200,000 miles of driving. These figures are also dependent on driving styles, ambient weather, and charging habits.
Headshot of Alexandra Jones
Alexandra Jones
 

3 hours ago, StephenFord said:

If you read back the 136 pages of this thread, I have never been 'against' EVs.

Absolutely. I trust you appreciate I edited in jest there!

 

On 2/27/2025 at 8:21 PM, eddie eastwood said:

Credit CNET

Crikey, are you going for the longest post award, Thomas?😀

Going back to my earlier posts about my correspondence with my MP on the issue of should the Government subsidise private or company EV acquisitions, given that there seems currently to be a large price gap.

One example I found personally relevant: I rather like the look of the new Renault 5 and was reading a brief review of the "sporty" Alpine A290 version. This is probably the nearest thing EV-wise to my present car - similar 0-62, bit more power, bit less maximum torque.

Drawbacks are it weighs about 300kg more, and range is around 30% less, and it would cost around £12- 15k more than the deal I got about on mine about 2 years back.

An exception to the price issue is Chinese cars of course. The MG 4 for instance is very competitive with ICE cars and has received very positive reviews.

I keep pondering on various questions:

- Is Government policy (ZEV mandates, support for EV purchases, etc) pushing consumers towards Chinese brands to the detriment of European manufacturers? 

- Are the Chinese brands cheaper because of subsidy by their Government, manufacturing efficiencies, economies of scale, because the Chinese have got their hands on a large portion of the global supply of battery materials, or a combination of these factors?

- Have European manufacturers been a little complacent in being slow in establishing cost-efficient EV supply chains and over-reliant on Governments pushing them rather than promoting the benefits themselves.  Even now, if you watch an tv advert for an EV there seems to be little effort to explain what the benefit to you, the consumer, is in terms of driving pleasure, cost, etc - they just show beautiful people in utopian scenes usually involving leaves wafting about.

- Are EVs really that much more expensive than an equivalent ICE car? The example I give above certainly is, but in general ICE prices have been forced up by emission and safety legislation like Euro 7 and GSR 2. The expense of the latter in particular has effectively killed off many smaller ICE vehicles where the tighter margins cannot absorb the cost of re-engineering to comply.

A few articles on the topic:

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/heres-why-chinese-brands-like-byd-and-mg-can-price-their-electric-cars-so-cheap-91451

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2024/02/24/legacy-automakers-beware-cheaper-chinese-evs-could-make-you-obsolete/

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-13821875/Chinese-EV-brands-cheap-EVs-subsidies.html

 

(Not quite as long as Thomas's post but I did my best!😀).

6 hours ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

 

Crikey, are you going for the longest post award, Thomas?😀

Roger

I`m glad I did not have to write that, only copy and paste, or I would have ended up with cramp or typists wrist.

Credit Cinch and Daily Mirror

Drivers can 'get free car tax until 2026' with simple payment loophole
If your EV was registered between April 1, 2017 and March 31, 2025, then you will pay the standard rate of road tax, which is £195 a year from April 2025
 

 

ByLevi WinchesterMoney Editor

    05:00, 1 Mar 2025

  

Drivers of electric or low emission vehicles can get an extra year of free car tax by following a simple trick.

Electric vehicles (EVs) will no longer be exempt from paying car tax from April 2025. If your EV was registered between April 1, 2017 and March 31, 2025, then you will pay the standard rate of road tax, which is £195 a year from April 2025. If you buy a new EV after April 2025, you’ll pay the lowest first year rate of vehicle tax of £10 - then from the second year onward, you’ll pay £195 road tax.

But online used car dealer Cinch has explained a way to put off the increase for another year and get 12 more months of paying no road tax at all. You can renew your road tax any time, so Cinch has recommended renewing before April 2025 to avoid having to pay £195 until March 2026.

Cinch said: "Simply go through the process online using your number plate and 11-digit reference number on your V5C log book, and you’re sorted. The government website will ask if you’re sure because technically, you’re taxing your car twice until your original road tax expires, but you didn’t pay then, and you won’t pay now, so it’s no big deal. And there you go – £195 saved for another year."

This applies to drivers that already have an EV - if you're buying one brand new from April, you'll pay £10 for the first year, as mentioned above. Other car tax changes coming in April, will see EVs, zero or low emission cars that were registered between March 1, 2001 and March 31, 2017, and emit up to 100g/km of CO2, subject to road tax for the first time.

These vehicles currently don’t pay any road tax, although you still have to tax your car with the DVLA, even if you don’t have to make a payment. They will pay £20 a year from April 2025. If your car produces between 101-110g/km of CO2, or between 111-120g/km of CO2, you're charged £20 or £35 a year in car tax, respectively.

These rates won't be changing from this April - but for cars that produce more CO2 than these levels, car tax is going up. For example, if your car produces between 121-130g/km of CO2, the yearly rate for car tax is rising from £160 to £165, while a vehicle that produces over 255g/km of CO2 will be charged £760 from April, up from its current rate of £735.

Very sad news all over the media today:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/2021377/keir-starmer-tipped-sack-ed

1 minute ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Very sad news all over the media today:

3 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Very sad news all over the media today:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/2021377/keir-starmer-tipped-sack-ed

I hope he is not replaced with another zealot.

Just now, Tizer said:

I hope he is not replaced with another zealot.

Someone who can eat a bacon sarnie might be a start! Hope I'm not being over-optimistic, but I'm getting the vibe that the PM has woken up and smelled the coffee to some extent.

1 minute ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

...but I'm getting the vibe that the PM has woken up and smelled the coffee to some extent.

I'm thinking that coffee was served to him recently at the Whitehouse! 😂

3 hours ago, StephenFord said:

I'm thinking that coffee was served to him recently at the Whitehouse! 😂

The catering firm my dad was director of ,now does the whitehouse food and drink. That's what he  told me today. 🤣

 

3 hours ago, Tizer said:

I hope he is not replaced with another zealot.

Jeremy Corbyn is available 🤣

19 minutes ago, unofix said:

Jeremy Corbyn is available 🤣

Crikey, we will be all issued with bicycle's. 

Just been reading this interview with the outgoing Lucid Motors CEO, which I found quite interesting and thought provoking:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/outgoing-lucid-boss-explains-why-most-evs-suck

I've commented before that I rather like the look of the new Renault 5/Alpine A290 (though I'm less keen on the price!). Rather taken with this, also:

 https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/105622/new-vw-id1-previewed-idevery1-concept-groundbreaking-ps17k-ev-city-car-due-2027

I could see this as a suitable replacement for my wife's SEAT Mii/VW Up clone in due course.

It does seem to me that, apart from price issues, one of the barriers to EV take up is simply the choice of cars at the moment. If a medium/large SUV/saloon suits your needs, fine. But not much for people who want a supermini or city car, with most ICE versions having already gone or facing the axe shortly, and no direct EV equivalents.

So cars like this VW and the R5 might start having an impact. Certainly preferable imo to "bribing" buyers with incentives paid for by the taxpayer.

On 3/2/2025 at 5:32 PM, iantt said:

Crikey, we will be all issued with bicycle's. 

Doubtful. The manufacturing of bicycles would require steel making and plastic components along with rubber molding for the tires. That is all industrial manufacturing. The climate change movement is invested in completely destroying manufacturing in Europe and the UK. You will be walking around in Chinese knockoff plastic “crocs” sandals! They are terrible for walking any distance. But that won’t matter because the UK economy will have collapsed anyway. I wish it was a brighter outlook for Europe and the UK but I don’t think the leadership is in their right minds to avoid a disaster. They are enthusiastically running towards the precipice.

7 hours ago, Scottman said:

You will be walking around in Chinese knockoff plastic “crocs” sandals!

And a lot of the supposedly European or US bicycle brands are made there too, plus India, Taiwan, Thsiland, Vietnam etc.

I see in the media today that the SMMT are yet again calling for further Government incentives for EV buyers. 

This one really winds me up, as I've posted before:

On 2/27/2025 at 7:25 PM, Eric Bloodaxe said:

If I come to that conclusion myself, I'll go for it, but (and this is the point I was trying to get across to my MP) I don't expect the taxpayer to subsidise my choice of car. Nor do I expect a car manufacturer to be penalised for failing to sell me one.

The industry claims it spent £4.5bn discounting EVs in 2024 to meet the 22% ZEV target, and this year it ramps up to 28%, so I can see their concern. 

As I recently wrote to my MP (twice, as he didn't seem to understand the first time!), I totally fail to see why taxpayers money should subsidise someone buying an EV (quite possibly not even made here, or even worse, it might be a Tesla). Or indeed, why a manufacturer should be penalised for failing to sell a customer something they don't, as yet, want to buy.

It's ironic that the cut off for sales of carbon fuelled vehicles was originally set for 2045, which would have given plenty of opportunity for various zero emission technologies to develop and sales to grow organically, with consumers being able to make the best choice for them.

As it is, a totally arbitrary target of 2030 backed up by an illogical "mandate" has led to the term "ZEV" being virtually synonymous with "BEV" simply because it seems to be the only technology available in volume as of now.

I had to smile at this piece. Ford have already restricted supply of petrol cars by virtually stopping making them!

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ford/363114/restricting-supply-petrol-cars-still-option-ford-ev-targets-bite

 

 

 

 

I see Kemi Baddnoch is looking set to ditch her parties commitment to "net zero" by 2050:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly3pnjyzp4o

A bit rich seeing they, under Theresa May, made it a legal commitment in the first place, but there you go.

Reform have had that in their policy document "Our Contract with You" for some time, of course.

 

1 hour ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

I see Kemi Baddnoch is looking set to ditch her parties commitment to "net zero" by 2025

She actually now stated that it would bankrupt the country. Shame she wasn't so far sighted when in power, she continuously voted in favour of 'net zero'...

30 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

Shame she wasn't so far sighted when in power, she continuously voted in favour of 'net zero'...

That's politics for you!😀