2015 186000 miles focus drives great first half of tank

[hippo4x4]

hi everyone 

 

 i have an issue with my 2015 focus 1.5 diesel,    even though it has covered just over 186k miles drives great no issues in last 2 years of owning it.  

 

few months ago was driving along and it just stopped fuel was low but 75 miles left till empty no warning. i refilled it and away she went no issues until 2 weeks ago my son was using it just under 1/2 tank nearly 250 miles to empty  he covered about 70 miles  it cut out on him wouldn't start but showing 1/4 tank i told him the issue i had AA was called out fuel added apparently was n B**** to start but did eventually so tank brimmed and every thing was fine tried to find out any known issue and rang Ford regarding recalls seen online 2 outstanding recalls so booked it in for Tuesday next week. but none was to do with fuel issues.

 

so i  decided to keep eye on it and put a gallon of fuel in container just incase having covered about 250 miles since brimmed tank this morning car showing 1/2 tank 295 miles to empty same happened just cut out on M42 so i put my gallon in and would not start, eventually turned over ran for 5 seconds then cut out   got moved onto place of safety after 2.5 hrs  until AA arrived,  tried again fired up ran for 20 seconds switched it off then restarted  it and ran so switched off again to call AA to advise them , they said if i cancel then id be at bk of queue after waiting 3 hrs so i waited, patrol turned up wouldn't start informed him of the above issue and he did a diagnostic and said fuel pressure issue so recovered me home.  went out and got 20 litres  of diesel stuck that in tank turned key and it needed jumping so connected leads and it fired into life within 10 seconds and runs sweet revs fine no judder coughing cleared codes and done another read no codes found.

 

if you managed to read till here well done and thank you  :)

 

so my question is has anyone had this issue and can anyone advise me as to what it may be??

thanks 

 

 

[unclesam]

I had a similar issue on a diesel w124 Mercedes. On that the car would run fine until the fuel tank got down to 1/4 then it would cut out and not run. In my case it turned out to be suffering from "diesel bug". It is an algae that lives in the diesel and is mostly a problem for marine engines and usually caused if the diesel is left for a while in a half full can or tank where condensation can occur. The algae blocks the fuel filters - I never found out why the car ran OK with over 1/4 of a tank but the problem was completely cured by draining the fuel system, washing the tank out, replacing the filters and adding a treatment for the diesel bug. Check your fuel filter to see if it has any crud in it.

[isetta]

Just a theory, the fuel pick up in tank takes fuel from the bottom, I don’t know if it’s plastic or metal, I am wondering if the fuel pickup tube has a split, crack in it near bottom. If fuel level is above crack then it sucks up fuel when fuel level goes below crack then it sucks up air. If my car I think first thing I would do is remove that part from tank and inspect it. I have no idea how difficult that might be. I once had an escort mk4 that kept having an intermittent fault which after a lot of grief turned out to be a problem with the tank breather valve, where it lets air in when fuel is sucked out which I fixed by drilling the smallest hole possible in fuel cap (which is what old cars in 1970s had).  but that was not linked to fuel level.

[hippo4x4]

hi 

thanks for the reply and potential starting point for a  fix i will  get a filter today look at charging  today or tomorrow if that improves i will then look at full tank out and clean  

 

cheers 

[hippo4x4]

hi isetta

 

thanks for the reply,  the amount in tank has changed 3 times  when this has happened from 75 miles to empty the 1/4 tank at a109 miles to empty the over 250 miles at 1/2 tank i'm thinking if was a split issue would be at the same point each time unless any possible split getting bigger, from what i've looked at online the tank needs to be completely dropped to access it but thank you will keep that in mind to check if tank has to come out 

 

cheers 

[unclesam]

Try a new filter for sure - it is easy and cheap. Not sure if you can see inside the filter on a Focus - if you can then take a look. If it is clogged then it could well be the diesel bug problem. If it is that then the new filter will clog pretty quickly I am afraid.

[hippo4x4]

34 minutes ago, unclesam said:

Try a new filter for sure - it is easy and cheap. Not sure if you can see inside the filter on a Focus - if you can then take a look. If it is clogged then it could well be the diesel bug problem. If it is that then the new filter will clog pretty quickly I am afraid.

hi Steve 

  new filter ordered will be collection it after 2 so will get that on asap my plan is the to run the tank down and see if it fails at any of the previous spots if it dont will take tank off and full clean new filter and fingers crossed. i will also cut the filter open and see whats inside 

 

cheers  

[hippo4x4]

picked up the gen ford filter will fit tomorrow but speaking to the chap he recons that if was diesel bug issue it wouldn't drive great then just cut out ??  says have issues starting and would run all over the place 

  any thoughts??

 

cheers 

[unclesam]

The Mercedes ran absolutely fine until it got down to 1/4 tank. In fact I bought it like this and only found out that there was a problem the following day. It turned out that the guy who sold it to me knew about the problem but had not said anything. In my investigation to find out what was wrong I got in contact with the previous long term owner and he had sold it as needing attention to the lying toerag that I bought it from. It had been a problem for years apparently. The fuel filters would block up - on the Mercedes there were two fuel filters and the first one was an open mesh filter so very easy to see that it was blocked with a dark slimy mess.

It was 100% fixed after cleaning and diesel bug treatment - bought from a marine chandlers in Gloucester.

It doesn't really make any sense why it would run fine with a full tank and I never found the answer - but it did.

You probably know this already but the other common problem with poor starting diesels is an air leak in the fuel supply - can be hard to find because the leak creates a vacuum and sucks air in rather than leaks fuel out.

[billyboy]

I once had that problem and it was the vent valve in the fuel tank causing a strong vacuum, if I opened the filler cap and released the vacuum it would be ok again for another 100 miles.

[hippo4x4]

11 hours ago, unclesam said:

The Mercedes ran absolutely fine until it got down to 1/4 tank. In fact I bought it like this and only found out that there was a problem the following day. It turned out that the guy who sold it to me knew about the problem but had not said anything. In my investigation to find out what was wrong I got in contact with the previous long term owner and he had sold it as needing attention to the lying toerag that I bought it from. It had been a problem for years apparently. The fuel filters would block up - on the Mercedes there were two fuel filters and the first one was an open mesh filter so very easy to see that it was blocked with a dark slimy mess.

It was 100% fixed after cleaning and diesel bug treatment - bought from a marine chandlers in Gloucester.

It doesn't really make any sense why it would run fine with a full tank and I never found the answer - but it did.

You probably know this already but the other common problem with poor starting diesels is an air leak in the fuel supply - can be hard to find because the leak creates a vacuum and sucks air in rather than leaks fuel out.

cheers again steve

 

as you say it don't make sense that no running or starting issues but as i now have filter i will be looking at that first, i have just thought aswell i have a endoscope camera i can attach to my phone so might see if i can feed that into tank to see if any signs in there.

 

thanks again

[hippo4x4]

4 hours ago, billyboy said:

I once had that problem and it was the vent valve in the fuel tank causing a strong vacuum, if I opened the filler cap and released the vacuum it would be ok again for another 100 miles.

Hi Bill 

 

 thanks for the input was yours on the focus??   i have read few things online ref vents and a recall in USA but don't mention if diesel or petrol.   did you have to remove the tank to fix??

 

cheers 

[hippo4x4]

ok so i have put camera in tank not great view but looked ok all filler pipe clean, 

 

changed the filter, old filter was spotless as can be  no signs of any crap or sludge in it. The center mesh part was still clean white the outer paper bit was very slightly blackened but not much so am i right thinking it can't be the diesel bug issue??

[unclesam]

Yes you can rule out the diesel bug as the problem, sorry to have misled you this time - but changing the filter was probably a good first bet.

Just a coincidence that you have similar symptoms. 

Can you see the fuel in the lines - on the mercedes the fuel lines were clear so it was possible to see air bubbles. But not sure why an air leak would get worse when the fuel level drops. 

[hippo4x4]

59 minutes ago, unclesam said:

Yes you can rule out the diesel bug as the problem, sorry to have misled you this time - but changing the filter was probably a good first bet.

Just a coincidence that you have similar symptoms. 

Can you see the fuel in the lines - on the mercedes the fuel lines were clear so it was possible to see air bubbles. But not sure why an air leak would get worse when the fuel level drops. 

not at all was due a service soon anyway so just done it a few weeks earlier no problems, and if it was that then i'd been over the moon lol.  no all pipes are black so thats not an option but again if air i'd thought would be starting running issues.

[billyboy]

19 hours ago, hippo4x4 said:

Hi Bill 

 

 thanks for the input was yours on the focus??   i have read few things online ref vents and a recall in USA but don't mention if diesel or petrol.   did you have to remove the tank to fix??

 

cheers 

No, different car not a Ford but same symptoms the vent was in the cap.

The easiest way to tell is when it stops remove the cap or press the flap if it's auto fill and listen to the sound, tanks these days normally have a negative pressure but it will be even louder if it's the problem.

[hippo4x4]

4 hours ago, billyboy said:

No, different car not a Ford but same symptoms the vent was in the cap.

The easiest way to tell is when it stops remove the cap or press the flap if it's auto fill and listen to the sound, tanks these days normally have a negative pressure but it will be even louder if it's the problem.

oh ok thank you for the info. don't think mine is that issue then as when it stopped on the 2nd and 3rd  occasions a 5L diesel can was put into the tank at the roadside and i'm assuming that would of vented the take at at this point.

 

I have always filled my cars up to full tanks and rarely let it go below 1/4 before refilling as not to drag any s*** into the system but whats the really worrying thing is the volume in the tank to where it cuts out has changed 3 times now. 

 

none of it makes sense as it drives great then stops without any warning or symptoms.

 

cheers  

[isetta]

I notice you responded on another post about that issue where it mentioned a concave tank in one post. That would be caused by vent problem so pump sucks the sides of tank in. In the old days of metal tanks it also happened but was easier to see as tank showed signs of being deformed even when vacuum inside released. With plastic tanks they might just spring back into shape maybe. Anyway perhaps look at tank when car is ok, remember what it’s like, as soon as car next plays up, leap out and look at tank immediately to see if it looks sucked in

[hippo4x4]

56 minutes ago, isetta said:

I notice you responded on another post about that issue where it mentioned a concave tank in one post. That would be caused by vent problem so pump sucks the sides of tank in. In the old days of metal tanks it also happened but was easier to see as tank showed signs of being deformed even when vacuum inside released. With plastic tanks they might just spring back into shape maybe. Anyway perhaps look at tank when car is ok, remember what it’s like, as soon as car next plays up, leap out and look at tank immediately to see if it looks sucked in

Hi Thanks for the reply again

 

i was thinking along same lines and will check on that but what also springs to mind is being a plastic tank, if was deforming due to vent issue wouldn't it reform once the filler cap was opened thus allowing the half full tank usable again rather then having to have it topped up to full?

 

another thought i had to see if it was venting issue was to place length of wire/cable down the filler neck to keep the flaps open slightly allowing venting that way.

 

 

 

[hippo4x4]

just read  this reply to same issue on a merc site 

any thoughts on this ??

 

It will be a faulty high pressure pump. The supply to the engine works using a venturi effect swirl system, the valve that sticks prevents the fuel being swirled from one side of the saddle tank to the other, which happens to be the supply side! When you fill up with diesel you always fill the right hand side of the tank first, which is why it will always start. But as the venturi can work properly the leaked off fuel can only return to the left hand side of the tank (the non supply side) and eventually it will run out of diesel.

[Tdci-Peter]

10 hours ago, hippo4x4 said:

The supply to the engine works using a venturi effect swirl system, the valve that sticks prevents the fuel being swirled from one side of the saddle tank to the other, which happens to be the supply side! When you fill up with diesel you always fill the right hand side of the tank first, which is why it will always start. But as the venturi can work properly the leaked off fuel can only return to the left hand side of the tank (the non supply side) and eventually it will run out of diesel.

That does not sound like being relevant to the Ford Focus. It is due to a double tank system, presumably so it can cross over an exhaust or driveshaft or something. I rather suspect the level in the tank is a red herring, and the fault is intermittent regardless of amount in the tank. Blocked vents should produce an audible hiss or whoosh as the filler cap is opened.

Usually fuel pressure problems will produce a DTC or two, even if the MIL (engine light) is not on. Twice now, when I have had problems priming my system after a filter change, Forscan found a fuel pressure DTC stored when run shortly after starting, with no indication on the dash. This DTC has not appeared at other times for me.

A fault in the high pressure pump will almost always give a DTC, as the ECU knows what to expect.

Forscan can monitor rpm, pump control valve duty and pressure while cranking. On my car it needs about 200rpm and 200 Bar before it even tries to start.

You seem to be doing quite a good job of eliminating fuel supply related faults. But if it is intermittent, it could be some other engine system problem. Many times I have had intermittent electrical faults in my job, and they often seem to correlate with some event, but sometimes when tracked down they are not related to that. It was a co-incidence or indirect consequence that led me in the wrong direction. Also DTCs are not 100% accurate, and should never be accepted simply on face value for expensive repairs, but they do give a vital clue as to general area of the fault.

 

[hippo4x4]

Hi Peter thank you again for the reply.

 

following your post i contacted the AA to see if they had any fault codes when they recovered me and they have now emailed me the following 

 

Patrol found the following fault codes 

 System : Engine control 1 - ZE3 / Diesel EDC 17C70P008A - Fuel low-pressure circuit. Error Message : Malfunction.P0087 - Rail pressure. Error Message : Unknown error type ($F3).P029900 - Boost pressure control. Error Message : Charge air pressure too low.P056200 - System power supply. Error Message : Voltage too low.P014C00 - O2 sensor (bank 1, sensor 1). Error Message : Switchover to lean too slow.P013A00 - O2 sensor (bank 1, sensor 2). Error Message : Switchover to lean too slow.P162F00 - Starter motor deactivated. Error Message : Actuation time too long.P068A - Main relay. 

 

 

The service we provide is essentially an emergency breakdown assistance service and is not equivalent to the service carried out by mechanics working in a fully equipped garage or workshop. Please note in particular that we can only test for and discover so much in a breakdown situation.

Make sure that you get any symptoms we have identified or possible faults we have suggested checked out by your chosen repairer before getting any further work done.

 

from what they said on the phone these faults could be from trying to restart the car after it had cut out.

the car has cut out 3 times showing 3 different amounts of fuel in the tank 

 

cheers 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tdci-Peter]

5 hours ago, hippo4x4 said:

from what they said on the phone these faults could be from trying to restart the car after it had cut out.

That is clearly the case with some of the codes. I had P0089 after a fuel filter change & start with a little air in the system: It did start 1st time, but had a couple of hesitations. So P0089 could be air in the fuel, but it could also be an intermittent fault in the sensor, or in the Pump control valve (IMV).

I am not convinced that the O2 errors and P0299 error happened while cranking. Neither turbo nor O2 sensors are much use until the engine is running.

In situations like this, the best plan is to frequently monitor for DTCs, logging & clearing them, and see what comes back soonest or most regularly.

[hippo4x4]

Hi Peter thanks again for the reply.

 

was in ford today for the recalls i explained the issues and was told not a problem they were aware of i asked them to check it over and run a check on codes.

 

when collected they stated couldn't find any issues and no codes logged so i'm planning on carrying 5 gallons with me and checking for codes after every trip to see if anything shows up without symptoms.

 

cheers again all for help so far 

[unclesam]

Just to confirm that the mercedes comment is specific to the C class which has a slightly strange fuel tank in a kind of saddle shape so there is a right and left vessel - it can cause some strange problems with supply and fuel gauge.