Hi All, new member here.  I collected a 3 month old Fiesta ST-3 last weekend with less than 100 recorded miles from one of the major car supermarkets.  I was aware it had already had 2 recorded keepers and a minor warranty repair when it was a few days old.  

The car drove fine on the 200 mile journey home but next day when my wife was driving with me as passenger, at about 30 mph at steady throttle while I was adjusting the sound system settings on the Sync3 display, the engine suddenly shut down without warning or any prior symptoms.  Her recollection was that the only thing displayed on the digital dash was a couple of amber lights and a central message saying something like "Engine Shut Down".   On pulling over, the car restarted immediately on pressing the button with no residual warnings and drove fine.  Since then I've driven it a few times without any issues.   I also forced the engine to shut down while driving as per the instructions in the owners manual but the resultant dash displays were completely different.  The car is now booked in with my local Ford dealer for investigation in mid Jan but they could not see any DTCs (fault codes) in the last 60 days history on their system based on the data sent by the car via my Ford Pass app.  They warned me that they may well not find any faults and are not paid by Ford under the new car warranty for diagnosing the fault, only the actual repair costs, so are not going to be motivated to much more than basic fault code checks and a quick test drive.

The Ford dealer in Merseyside who did the warranty repair when the car was a few days old has told me the fault reported by the owner was engine power loss and dash warnings illuminated.  They also told me the AA had attended but didn't find any fault codes or issues with the car.  The vehicle history check I did before purchase showed a change of keeper when the vehicle was about 3 weeks old so I'm now suspecting that the original owner rejected the car and either the supplying dealer or Ford UK took it back and subsequently sold it through the trade about 3 weeks later.

Having confirmed our fault appears similar to the original owner's problem, I contacted Ford UK Customer Services for advice while waiting for my local dealer's investigation.  They sent the AA to check the car at home but once again no fault codes are logged in the car. 

I've kept the dealer I bought the car from informed and told them I will probably have to reject the car if my local dealer cannot fix the problem as this appears to be an existing issue with the car when I bought it.  I'm hoping it can be fixed as it seems to be a fantastic little car but my wife is now refusing to drive it due to safety worries and won't have confidence in it if no fault is found with it. 

Has anyone else experienced sudden unexpected engine shut down like this?  I've not found anything that seems to be relevant on google searches.

1 hour ago, Malvolio said:

Has anyone else experienced sudden unexpected engine shut down like this?

I think you are the first to have this problem here on the forum.

You never know it's original owner may be here on the Ford Owners Club 🤔

Thanks unofix, I did do a forum search first and couldn't find anything. 

I might be heading for a difficult situation regarding where I stand if the AA and Ford can't find any fault codes.  It would be great if the original owner was on here and would be kind enough to PM me with any information.  

26 minutes ago, Malvolio said:

 It would be great if the original owner was on here and would be kind enough to PM me with any information.  

Think you will need to post the registration number to stand a chance of them finding this thread.

20 hours ago, Malvolio said:

  I collected a 3 month old Fiesta ST-3 last weekend with less than 100 recorded miles from one of the major car supermarkets.

Not specifically of help here, but I've spotted a few posts on other forums regarding near new cars for sale that had previous owner(s), very low mileage etc, which made the potential buyers suspicious.

I've had zero issues with mine, btw.

The latest on this is that the car has now lost engine power (engine shut down, not limp mode) twice whilst driving (moving, not stationary).  My local Ford dealer didn't find any fault codes.  On legal advice, I formally rejected the car back to the supplying dealer (well known car supermarket) under the Consumer Rights Act but they have said there is no evidence of a fault so have rejected my claim.  

The original supplying Ford dealer has emailed me the car's Warranty History as recorded in the Ford PTS system.  This shows that at 85 miles from new (I bought it with 98 miles on the clock), it had a warranty repair.  The reported issue was loss of power with dash warnings (same as we've experienced).  Their customer had called the AA who could not find any fault codes or issues with the car.  The Technician comment in the warranty report stated fault code P0504 was diagnosed and the brake pedal switch was found to be corroded and replaced. The car build date is 4 July 2023, a couple of months before this warranty repair.  I've had a close look at the pedal switch and there's no evidence of any water ingress/dampness to suggest corrosion happened when it was fitted to the car.

The car had 2 previous keepers when I bought it.  I've requested details of these from DVLA.  My suspicion is the original owner rejected the car due to the power loss/engine shut down we've now experienced twice in 300 miles, as the 2nd keeper (I'm the 3rd) acquired the car a few days after the repair.  My suspicion is that the original dealer, like the AA, did not actually find any fault codes and so agreed to take the car back.  I suspect they then recorded the brake pedal switch repair on the Ford system to provide evidence they had rectified the fault before selling it through the trade where it was bought by the car supermarket and sold to me ......  about 2 months and 13 miles after the brake switch repair.  

So whilst I have the evidence that the original owner experienced loss of power, I haven't yet been able to confirm that they rejected the car.  The 13 miles driven in the car between the switch repair and me buying it suggests the original owner did not take it back after the repair.  I can't believe the dealer would have agreed to take the car back if the simple switch repair (only 0.4 hrs work recorded to diagnose and fix) was genuinely the cause of the owner's reported power loss. 

Ford UK Customer Services are not willing to provide me any history on the vehicle nor take any responsibility for the fault so I'm currently stuck with a potentially dangerous car that hasn't turned a wheel (on advice from my solicitor) since I rejected it mid January.  I'm hoping DVLA will  provide the previous keepers details so I can try to confirm the problem they experienced and whether they rejected the car.  If not, I will need to start legal proceedings using the information I've already got. 

Any constructive thoughts or advice welome!   

As you've already involved a solicitor, they will have explained your legal rights. 

Problem as you've already found is difficulty proving the issue existed when you bought the car, though there does seem to be a fair amount of circumstantial evidence.

Finding the previous owners would be a great help, I've seen it happen on other forums which are more specific to Fiesta ST Owners.

If you used some form of finance, that can be another lever.

Otherwise, the hint of negative publicity via an online review etc might stimulate some response?

My first thought when reading this was why had the car had two previous owners with so little mileage.   I think you should insist on the dealer taking the car back and if he refuses then try Trading Standards.

Thanks both for your input.  I was concerned about the two previous owners given the age and mileage on a car like this but it seems my big mistake was assuming that any problems would be covered by the Ford manufacturers warranty.  That would probably be true if the fault can be diagnosed but where there are no fault codes present and they did not sell the car to me, Ford won't do any deeper investigation.  The legal advice is I need to pursue the selling dealer which is one of the major car supermarket chains.  

At least I do now have the Warranty History evidence of the customer reporting the same fault before I bought it.  Getting the story directly from the original owner would be even better.  The main missing piece of the jigsaw is confirmation that the car was rejected due to the power loss fault.  If the original dealer really believed they'd fixed the problem with the switch change, why didn't it go back to the original owner?  The fault was reported when the car was 4 days old.  I'm not convinced that the brake pedal switch was corroded, nor that it would cause engine power loss at a technical level if it was.  Also not convinced that the seemingly common fault code stated in the Warranty History could be diagnosed and fixed in 0.4 hours by Ford when the AA didn't find any fault codes.

I'll look into your suggestions and post an update when I have one.

15 minutes ago, Malvolio said:

when the AA didn't find any fault codes.

It's not uncommon for the AA/RAC and other motoring organisations not to be able to read Ford specific DTC's.

The AA use a very nice and very expensive diagnostic device, but due to the nature of them having to deal with so many makes and models it is by nature a Generic code reader. If you want to read the codes the same as those that a Ford dealer will see you need to use the software FORScan and a vLinker FS cable with a windows laptop.

You say the car had 2 previous owners. Could the car have been a pre-registered vehicle making the original dealer the first owner ?

Facebook groups get much more traffic than forums nowadays.  

If you post the reg on a few of those, you might have more chance finding the previous owner.

I don't remember seeing this fault on here previously.

2 hours ago, unofix said:

It's not uncommon for the AA/RAC and other motoring organisations not to be able to read Ford specific DTC's.

The AA use a very nice and very expensive diagnostic device, but due to the nature of them having to deal with so many makes and models it is by nature a Generic code reader. If you want to read the codes the same as those that a Ford dealer will see you need to use the software FORScan and a vLinker FS cable with a windows laptop.

You say the car had 2 previous owners. Could the car have been a pre-registered vehicle making the original dealer the first owner ?

The fault code in the Warranty entry is P0504 which appears to be an OBD-II generic code used by many manufacturers.  There are posts on this forum where members seem to have diagnosed this code with generic OBD code readers, so I'm surprised that the AA didn't pick it up if this code was actually present.  And given brake pedal switches are a relatively common fault, it's odd that I can't find any evidence of it causing loss of engine power.   

The car was first registered mid September and experienced this fault 4 days after first registration with 85 miles on the clock.  It appears the warranty repair was carried out a few days later on 25 September with the mileage still at 85.  The change of keeper was registered in early October, a week or so after the repair.   The car warehouse I bought it from acquired it around 21 November and I bought it 2 days before Christmas.  So between 25 September and 23 December, it only acquired 13 more miles but early in that period the registered keeper changed.  So it seems highly unlikely the 1st owner drove it far, if at all, after the repair, and highly unlikely the 2nd owner was a private individual.  I'm suspecting the 13 miles between repair and me collecting it was just down to it being moved within the trade and maybe test drives at the car warehouse before I bought it.  

I've just acquired the FORScan Lite app and bluetooth adapter so I can do live data logging to try to identify the fault if my legal claim to reject the car fails.

I'm not able to drive the car at the moment due to the legal process but started it up to experiment with FORScan. 

There is a very long list of PIDs in the PCM module so any recommendations as to which PIDs I should enable for live data logging that might provide an insight into the random engine shut down would be much appreciated. 

Can anyone confirm whether the BOO (Brake On/Off) PID works on the late model Fiesta ST3?  The "Off" status doesn't change when I press the brake pedal with engine running.  The car had the brake pedal switch replaced when it was a few days old so I thought I'd include this PID in the list to log. 

Thanks.

 

3 hours ago, Malvolio said:

Can anyone confirm whether the BOO (Brake On/Off) PID works on the late model Fiesta ST3? 

If the Fiesta ST has an Electronic Brake Booster like the Focus ST then maybe FORScan has not caught up with it yet.

If there was a fault with the switch, which must still be must be operating the Stop Lamps, then I would hope it came up un the FORScan Tests.

A potential fault with the brake pedal switch was diagnosed by the AA on the day the car was sold new last September but I don't know what symptoms/issue the owner experienced.  The AA report states:

Engine control 1 - BFM / Engine management MG1 CS016P050400 - Brake switch A/B. Error Message : Malfunction.Warning light coming on checked found brake light switch fault connections OK brake lights working possible faulty switch advise member

Three days later the AA were called out again due to the owner reporting loss of engine power and dash warnings.  They apparently didn't find any fault codes that time but recovered the car to the original supplying dealer who diagnosed fault code P0504 and replaced the pedal switch.  The original owner rejected the car when it was recovered to the dealer and I bought it 3 months and 13 miles later.  As far as I know, the brake pedal switch diagnosis and replacement was the only investigation done by the dealer before it was sold through auction to the car supermarket chain I bought it from.

So my starting point if I have to try to find the problem myself is the brake electrical system but I've no idea how that could cause engine shut down when driving, nor which PIDs to monitor.  But I'll look into whether it has Electronic Brake Booster and how that works.  

 

15 minutes ago, Malvolio said:

As far as I know, the brake pedal switch diagnosis and replacement was the only investigation done by the dealer

Be aware that there are two brake pedal switches on your car. One is normally open and closes to turn on the brake lights. The other is normally closed and goes open when you start to press the brake, this tells the Powertrain control module (PCM) that the brakes are being applied and to reduce the engine power.

The operation of the two switches are monitored

FiestaEU2021_cel090.pdf

Thanks very much Unofix.  The two switches are incorporated in one physical switch assembly in the car.   On FORScan, the BOO PID on the PCM module stays "Off" even when I was press and release the brake pedal.  In the BCM module BOO_1 stays Off but BOO_2 cycles On and Off when I press and release the brake pedal.   BOO_1 "Off" is in red text and BOO_2 "Off" or "On" status is in green text.  The diagram doesn't show a connection from the right side switch to the BCM, only to the PCM, so I'm wondering if BOO_1 in BCM module is redundant?

I'm also confused as to which switch the PCM BOO PID is monitoring, as the diagram shows the PCM connected to both switches.  Since the brake lights are working, I'm assuming BOO_2 in BCM is monitoring the left side switch so I'm guessing PCM BOO is monitoring the right side switch.  Since PCM BOO stays Off irrespective of brake pedal operation, I'm wondering if that right side switch is faulty, or there is a broken or shorted wire on that side switch?

Any thoughts welcome!

34 minutes ago, Malvolio said:

I'm wondering if that right side switch is faulty, or there is a broken or shorted wire on that side switch?

My thoughts would be it's got a switch fault. Remove a wire from the switch and see if FORScan sees it as open-circuit.

I've asked my local main dealer to confirm whether the BCM BOO_1 and PCM BOO PIDs should be changing status when the brake pedal is pushed.  Previously they scanned for fault codes and when they couldn't find any, advised me to take the issue up with the car supermarket I bought it from.

If the answer is yes, that suggests there is a fault so I'll ask them to investigate under the factory warranty.