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540itouring

Ford Fiesta 2013 Ecoboost 125 Degas Hose ? coolant loss

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Hi , I have a 2013 fiesta titanium X ecoboost 1.0 123 and has been a fantastic car and just got to 20k on the clock with no problems. I have just got the new car mechanics magazine and lists a problem with the degas hose which I think goes from the coolant  tank to the turbo and can be the cause of rapid coolant loss and a cooked engine as to warning on dash in time. I have had a google and found lots of problems with the degas hose plastic part braking but all relate to the Ford Focus. When this happens the engine is often scrap due to over heating and also found other posts on the Focus with cracked cylinder head.

 

Do any of these problems relate to the FIESTA . I also read on the focus it is the early cars and my fiesta was registered the end of march 2013.

 

Please can any info of fiesta ecoboost coolant loss , hoses or head problem as I do not want a cooked engine in the near future if I can help it. Has the degas hose be modified on the fiesta range ? or are we sure it is only focus models which came out before the ecoboost fiesta.

 

thanks for all your help.

 

 

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Put your reg into https://www.etis.ford.com/vehicleRegSelector.do as I believe that the recalls relating to the degas hoses will be listed on there under the 'Outstanding Field Service Actions' heading within 'Vehicle Summary'.

Also, look at all the large hoses going to/from the coolant expansion bottle. The dodgy hose had/has a plastic section within it and it is this that was sometimes becoming brittle and failing. The replacement hose is rubber from end to end.

Some early Fiesta do have a hose with a metal section within it and that too can be prone to corrosion due to it being in the air stream behind the intercooler; again the replacement (fitted from 2014-on I think) has done away with the metal bit.

Note that not all overheating failures can be attributed to the degas hose, particularly on the Focus. Other causes that I am aware of have included a cracked expansion bottle, failed headgasket and leaking seals around the (I think) water pump. The degas hose seems to get all the attention though, most likely due to the recall.

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The degas hose problems only apply to certain production batches of the hose that are used on the Focus Mk3. It is a misconception that this problem applies to early versions of the 1.0 ECOboost. Both older and newer types of degas hose have a different design and material than the affected type of hose and do not have this problem. 

As far as I know the Fiesta did never have this problem.

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Hi , thanks for the reply.

 

I looked up the reg but says  No Campaign Message(s) found

 

but my car does have the plastic clips where the hoses fix to the expansion bottle so I would think they would require upgrade.

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1 minute ago, JW1982 said:

The degas hose problems only apply to certain production batches of the hose that are used on the Focus Mk3. It is a misconception that this problem applies to early versions of the 1.0 ECOboost. Both older and newer types of degas hose have a different design and material than the affected type of hose and do not have this problem. 

As far as I know the Fiesta did never have this problem.

Early ecoboost fiestas (~13 / 63) had a recall for the degas hose

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Just now, 540itouring said:

but my car does have the plastic clips where the hoses fix to the expansion bottle so I would think they would require upgrade.

No, that's not the plastic I'm referring to. I'll see if I can dig out a picture.

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10 hours ago, MJNewton said:

Here's type of hose I mean - note the plastic intermediate section.

 

1802620 01.jpg

I looked at my car this morning and the lower hose is the same as this but the interconnect part of the hose is black and made of metal as I tested it with a magnet. The condition of the metal looks perfect from the outside .

 

Would you say this is the later hose or should it have a all rubber hose ?

 

I am now thinking of fitting a coolant level sensor and warning LED in the dash to prevent engine melt down. Has any members done this or know of a universal level sensor that would fit the tank ?

 

thanks again for all your help

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Most cooling system problems of the 1.0 ECOboost are caused by the higher coolant temperature. In relation to the older naturally aspirated petrol engines the direct injected, turbocharged 1.0 and 1.6 ECOboost petrol engines have a considerably higher engine and coolant temperature. This causes some plastic and vulcanised rubber materials that are used for some coolant system parts to deteriorate prematurely. Examples of this are the degas hose, coolant reservoir, coolant reservopir cap, etc.

The Focus MK3/MK3.5 for example uses the exact same coolant reservoir as the earlier C-max MK1/Focus MK2. This type of reservoir was introduced in 2003 on the C-max MK1 and has been used for many engine types without any problems. The ECOboost engines are the only ones which suffers from premature coolant reservoir failures on a large scale. On the ECOboost engines the plastic material of the coolant reservoir can develop (micro)cracks and discoloration which in the end causes the reservoir to burst.

Another point of concern is the coolant itself. The higher coolant temperature causes the coolant to crystallize. This causes crystal deposits to attach inside the coolant system parts. As a result of this for example the coolant reservoir cap can seize solid onto the reservoir. on the long term the deposits inside the cooling system can eventually cause blockages of the coolant system.

Next to this the Earlier versions of the 1.0 ECOboost (build approximately before 2015) suffer from a design fault. These early versions only have a coolant temperature sensor that is mounted inside the coolant system and measures the coolant temperature. This sensor is used by the PCM to monitor the coolant temperature and control the temperature gauge and the temperature warning light. In case of a coolant leak the coolant leaks away pretty quick. When this happens the coolant temperature measures air instead of coolant. Air does not conduct the temperature very well. Because of this the PCM does not detect overheating of the engine at all or much too late. In this case when the driver notices the activated temperature warning light it is usually too late already. Serious engine damage as a result of overheating can occur without the driver even noticing. On later versions Ford solved this problem by installing an additional cylinder head temperature sensor. 

 

I have a 2013 low mileage (16000 MLS) Focus MK3  125 HP 1.0 ECOboost. When I bought the car in 2014 I already replaced the degas hose (not a recall yet at that time). Last Year the coolant reservoir developed microcracks and discoloration. This made me decide to perform the following actions:

* Replace the coolant reservoir.

* Replace the coolant reservoir cap.

* Replace the coolant.

* Install the additional electric coolant pump.

After all parts were replaced I vacuum bled the coolant system and reprogrammed the PCM (necessary for the additional electric coolant pump). Luckily I have the skills/knowledge and tools to do this myself. 

i am currently investigating the possibility to install the additional cylinder head temperature sensor that is used on later versions of the 1.0 ECOboost. However earlier 1.0 ECOboost PCM's do not support this additional sensor. I will have to design a custom microprocessor controlled circuitry that monitors the output of both the coolant temperature sensor and the cylinder head temperature sensor and outputs a signal to the PCM.  

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1 hour ago, 540itouring said:

I looked at my car this morning and the lower hose is the same as this but the interconnect part of the hose is black and made of metal as I tested it with a magnet. The condition of the metal looks perfect from the outside.

If it looks fine on the outside I wouldn't worry (corrosion on the inside will be minimal due to the corrosion inhibitors in the coolant).

Quote

Would you say this is the later hose or should it have a all rubber hose ?

According to Microcat the pipe fitted until Feb '14 was part code C1B1 8K276-AE which appears to have the insert, however from Feb '14 it changed to C1B1 8K276-BC which doesn't.

Quote

I am now thinking of fitting a coolant level sensor and warning LED in the dash to prevent engine melt down. Has any members done this or know of a universal level sensor that would fit the tank ?

It'd be good to hear if you find anything. Many cars do of course have level sensors but they are often an inherent part of the cap or bottle and so retrofitting one might be difficult, particularly given the importance of maintaining a pressure tight seal.

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Thanks for sharing that info Wilco - it is very useful.

1 hour ago, JW1982 said:

Most cooling system problems of the 1.0 ECOboost are caused by the higher coolant temperature. In relation to the older naturally aspirated petrol engines the direct injected, turbocharged 1.0 and 1.6 ECOboost petrol engines have a considerably higher engine and coolant temperature. This causes some plastic and vulcanised rubber materials that are used for some coolant system parts to deteriorate prematurely. Examples of this are the degas hose, coolant reservoir, coolant reservopir cap, etc. 

Are you sure the coolant operating temperature is higher than other engines? Etis appears to suggest that it runs at between 88ºC and 92ºC which seems fairly normal to me. I would, however, agree that the design of the Ecoboost engine is such that there is a greater-than-normal amount of heat produced and so really my point is more that I don't think this translates to higher-than-normal coolant operating temperatures but rather that the criticality of the cooling system is greater than would otherwise be the case and the threshold between working fine and all-out disaster is somewhat on the narrow side!

Quote

Next to this the Earlier versions of the 1.0 ECOboost (build approximately before 2015) suffer from a design fault. These early versions only have a coolant temperature sensor that is mounted inside the coolant system and measures the coolant temperature. This sensor is used by the PCM to monitor the coolant temperature and control the temperature gauge and the temperature warning light. In case of a coolant leak the coolant leaks away pretty quick. When this happens the coolant temperature measures air instead of coolant.

I wouldn't call it a design fault per se as this is a fairly conventional setup (granted; you could still argue it being a design flaw!). The tell tale symptom of most cars that have headgasket failure is that the temperature gauge starts to rise, hits the limit and then drops to minimum giving the impression that all is now okay. As you rightly point out though what has actually happened is that the coolant has boiled off leaving air around the sensor and thus whilst the gauge is saying everything is fine the engine is actually roasting itself.

What I would regard as a design fault is the digital temperature display on our cars as whilst I haven't verified this for myself I do recall reading that the display is not linear with respect to the actual temperature detected. Rather it seems heavily biassed towards sitting right in the middle and will only start shifting once quite significant temperature variations have been detected. I don't know where I read this so take it with a pinch of salt but from what I remember the person reached this conclusion having monitored his own temperatures via OBD when he had a dodgy thermostat and he observed that the dash gauge drew surprisingly little resemblance to what was actually happening.

This theory may also align with the fact that part of the Focus recall was not only to change the hose but to also install an update to the PCM. Perhaps this update was changing the thresholds of the gauge reading/warning so that it provided an indication of temperature problems sooner than was previously the case?

Quote

i am currently investigating the possibility to install the additional cylinder head temperature sensor that is used on later versions of the 1.0 ECOboost. However earlier 1.0 ECOboost PCM's do not support this additional sensor. I will have to design a custom microprocessor controlled circuitry that monitors the output of both the coolant temperature sensor and the cylinder head temperature sensor and outputs a signal to the PCM.

Do you know the part number of this additional sensor, where it actually sits and whether it is senses coolant or metal temperature? If you were to install one you might find it better (and easier!) to have it as a standalone circuit providing just yourself with a warning that things are starting to cook. I'd be very interested in hearing how you get on and willing to help if/where I can.

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the coolant temps get hotter quicker, i noticed this while monitoring temp sensor via obd, supprised me how hot just accelerating hard for a few seconds.
as for temp gauge, it is pretty useless indicator of temp. on my focus it read normal midway temp from approx 60 c to 110c( via obd )with needle not moving at all.

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and fiesta didnt have a recall on the hose that i know of


i used to suffer slight coolant losss over time and never found where it was going.
so after reading wilko had installed extra electrical coolant pump, i decided it woulf be a good idea to fit one myself.
after fitting ,the coolant loss stopped.
mine was not the only one to suffer slight coolnat loss.
nearly every focus without the extra pump had a loss when they came in for service.

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Wilco, what you don't know about Ford cars is not worth knowing about, Genius 👍

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yeah, wilko knows more than me and ive worked at ford garages for 15 yrs!! if i dont know the answer to an issue , i quite often rely on wilkos knowledge.

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3 hours ago, iantt said:

nearly every focus without the extra pump had a loss when they came in for service.

Any idea where it was going?

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A little bit of coolant loss is quite normal for these engines. The waterpump of the 1.0 and 1.6 ECOboost has a seal that is lubricated and cooled by coolant. This type of seal is known to leak a tiny bit of coolant (especially when new and the seal has not yet fully bedded in). Because of this these water pumps do all have signs of coolant loss. In the past many perfectly fine water pumps were changed because of these coolant signs.  

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I've purchased a replacement overflow reservoir, a cylinder head temp sensor and a low coolant level alarm, all of which I intend installing once my Fiesta 1.0 is back from it's current temp/coolant related problems at Ford. 

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Interesting David; any chance you could share details of your low coolant alarm?

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13 hours ago, MJNewton said:

Interesting David; any chance you could share details of your low coolant alarm?

This is the one I got off eBay. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/121532123147 

It seemed better to be checking the level in the overflow tank, and easier to adjust than top radiator hose alarms. Yet to install it though. 

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Thanks David. I was looking at those and wondered how they'd fare in terms of maintaining a pressure-tight seal. One can only assume they are fine in practice though.

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8 hours ago, MJNewton said:

Thanks David. I was looking at those and wondered how they'd fare in terms of maintaining a pressure-tight seal. One can only assume they are fine in practice though.

I asked they seller if I needed to use a silicone sealant.  They said surprisingly that no-one had ever asked and they'd sold 100s. They said it couldn't hurt. Best to use it, as well as a very small drill to ensure the screw thread is biting into the plastic. 

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Personally I do not like the idea of drilling holes in the coolant reservoir. The coolant reservoir is subjected to pressure and temperature changes. The coolant reservoir already turned out to be a weak part of the coolant system (at least on the Focus MK3/MK3.5) that develops (micro)cracks and material discolorations. Drilling holes in the coolant reservoir can seriously weaken the reservoir.

However I do like the idea of a coolant level alarm system. The best oprion in my opinion would be a coolant reservoir cap with integrated level sensor but unfortunately this does not seem to exist for this type of cap (which is used on many ford models and engine types). I already considered to make a custom aluminium cap with an integrated level sensor and pressure valve. However I never did this because I currently want to install the additional cilinder head temperature sensor and integrate it into the existing electronics.

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I am thinking of a external sensor module that could be mounted on the side of the tank and will detect the water level from the outside. I have a Jacuzzi  bath that uses this method of water level detection as to prevent the pump starting with low water level. I will have a search to see what I can find . This would then make it easy to drive a small bright led and if required a audio device of some type. These sensors will cost more than a standard level switch but would not require altering the tank by holes etc . I am not sure how they work but think it may be a infra red beam that is reflected by the water ?

any one seen a device like this on a bath etc

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