Ford Focus Diesel 1.6 (2010) Possible EGR problem?

[mcyates]

I've been having a few problems with my girlfriends Focus, originally I kept getting the following errors up on my OBD reader.

 

P042F

P244A
Diesel - Particulate Filter Efficiency Below Threshold Bank 1

 

The car would go into limp mode, but I'd clear the warnings with my OBD reader and the power would come back. I've been doing that for about 2 months. But now when I clear the warnings, it remains in limp mode.

 

I travelled from Middlesbrough to Faslane early this morning and I had "Engine Malfunction" warning come up and the car is now limited to 3000 revs. I have also been getting this new error code: 

 

P0299 - Turbocharger / supercharger Underboost

 

I have noticed though, once I get the Engine Malfunction warning up and continue to drive, clear the warning, then stop the car (say at roundabouts or traffic lights) with the engine still on, the limp mode stops but then the engine malfunction warning comes up within a minute if I'm on a motorway, but if I'm sticking to 30mph it doesn't come back up until I hit higher speeds (Probably when the revs are above 3,000RPM.

 

Any suggestions, i'm thinking about taking out the EGR valve to see if its clogged up. Is that a waste of time or good to know? 

 

Thanks in advance.

[DaveT70]

Sounds like the DPF is full

[mcyates]

18 hours ago, DaveT70 said:

Sounds like the DPF is full

Ah right, just removed the egr valve and it looks clean so bought a used one.cill fit that when it arrives and see what's changed. Probably nothing If it's the DPF. 

How can this be sorted? Would I need a new DPF?

Thanks 👍🏻

[DaveT70]

14 minutes ago, mcyates said:

How can this be sorted? Would I need a new DPF?

It's been done, not sure how, but you can remove them and clean them out. Have a look on youtube

[mcyates]

Another thing I noticed. On my obd reader I looked at my EGR_err was stuck on 99.2%, but I noticed if I took my foot off the accelerator it stays on 99.2% and if I hard accelerate it stays at 99.2% but it changes when I slightly accelerate but it goes from 99.2% to -70% then everything on between.

The EGR_PCT is always at 0.

I read this on a website talking about if the egr_err is at 99.2% and the egr_pct is at 0. 

Quote

COMMAND EGR = EGR_PCT: Commanded EGR is displayed as a percentage and is normalized for all EGR systems. EGR commanded OFF or Closed will display 0%, and EGR commanded to the fully open position will display 100%. Keep in mind this parameter does not reflect the quantity of EGR flow—only what the PCM is commanding.

EGR ERROR = EGR_ERR: This parameter is displayed in percentage and represents EGR position errors. The EGR Error is also normalized for all types of EGR systems. The reading is based on a simple formula: (Actual EGR Position − Commanded EGR) ÷ Commanded EGR = EGR Error. For example, if the EGR valve is commanded open 10% and the EGR valve moves only 5% (5% − 10%) ÷ 10% = −50% error. If the scan tool displays EGR Error at 99.2% and the EGR is commanded OFF, this indicates that the PCM is receiving information that the EGR valve position is greater than 0%. This may be due to an EGR valve that is stuck partially open or a malfunctioning EGR position sensor. 

 

[Tizer]

The DPF may have been cut out by a previous owner and the EGR might also have been blanked off. There is a relationship between these two things and the MAP pressure.

Doing diagnostics using fault codes only is not very reliable, you need to check Live Data as well. FORScan is the best diy system for checking Live Data as well as Ford specific fault codes. 

If you do replace the EGR then you will need something like FORScan to reset the Learned Values otherwise the new EGR will not function properly.  

[mcyates]

55 minutes ago, Tizer said:

The DPF may have been cut out by a previous owner and the EGR might also have been blanked off. There is a relationship between these two things and the MAP pressure.

Doing diagnostics using fault codes only is not very reliable, you need to check Live Data as well. FORScan is the best diy system for checking Live Data as well as Ford specific fault codes. 

If you do replace the EGR then you will need something like FORScan to reset the Learned Values otherwise the new EGR will not function properly.  

Thanks for your reply. I've taken the old EGR out getting a new.one tomorrow. I didn't know I had to reset it. Thanks for letting me know. I'll have to look into this forscan . 

I just thought it was a straight swap of the EGR valve. 😳

[Tizer]

No problem. If you get another EGR and it does not instantly clear all the problems then it would be a good idea to dismantle the old one to clean it out properly and try refitting it. I think the original ones were made by Valeo and people have had problems when they have fitted different aftermarket ones. If you don't reset the learned values then the car should work but it will think it has the old valve and will not perform as intended.

If you do get access to Live Data then given the fault codes the following are the things to monitor with the car at Idle as well as moving, not just revving .

DPF  Differential Pressure, MAP, MAF, EGR TV, plus any EGR parameters.

[mcyates]

19 hours ago, Tizer said:

No problem. If you get another EGR and it does not instantly clear all the problems then it would be a good idea to dismantle the old one to clean it out properly and try refitting it. I think the original ones were made by Valeo and people have had problems when they have fitted different aftermarket ones. If you don't reset the learned values then the car should work but it will think it has the old valve and will not perform as intended.

If you do get access to Live Data then given the fault codes the following are the things to monitor with the car at Idle as well as moving, not just revving .

DPF  Differential Pressure, MAP, MAF, EGR TV, plus any EGR parameters.

Happy days, thanks i'll have a look either today or tomorrow depending when it arrives and if I have time to fit it. 👍

[mcyates]

On 7/1/2021 at 5:13 PM, Tizer said:

No problem. If you get another EGR and it does not instantly clear all the problems then it would be a good idea to dismantle the old one to clean it out properly and try refitting it. I think the original ones were made by Valeo and people have had problems when they have fitted different aftermarket ones. If you don't reset the learned values then the car should work but it will think it has the old valve and will not perform as intended.

If you do get access to Live Data then given the fault codes the following are the things to monitor with the car at Idle as well as moving, not just revving .

DPF  Differential Pressure, MAP, MAF, EGR TV, plus any EGR parameters.

I went out for a ride today after fitting new EGR valve and resetting its learnt values.

I uploaded the Forscan file to here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MNZrP5ngy-38AnJL8WaBbLcQyXxQMAT-/view?usp=sharing

I don't know what to make of the results. So it would be good if someone could look at them. The car is still very sluggish, kind of in limp mode but I can get to full revs, it used to be limited to 3,000.

After I reset the ERG learned values I also cleared these warnings from the DTC:

I have started and stopped the car numerous times now and there are no more errors showing and no new ones have popped up.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me. 

[Tizer]

That file is unreadable unless you have something that can read .fsi files.

At Idle what values are you getting for MAP, MAF, DPF Differential Pressure.

[mcyates]

3 minutes ago, Tizer said:

That file is unreadable unless you have something that can read .fsi files.

At Idle what values are you getting for MAP, MAF, DPF Differential Pressure.

Oh right I just expected you wanted it in a forscan file. I'll pop in the car now and take a screenshot. 👍🏻

[mcyates]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BnGUNUno8Wq2KLJk9

Here is the image when the car is at idle. Tried to upload.tocwebsite but think file was too big. Came up with error -200 so uploaded it to Google photos. 👍🏻

[mcyates]

Sorry forgot to mention at idle  the DP_DPF fluctuates from 819.2 to 0.0 and the EGRTV_FLOV also fluctuates between 0.0 and 200 when at idle. But when I add revs they go to about 1.5  for DP_DPF and 0.3 for EGRTV_FLOV. 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YNGAPPpVCYu9iLDt7

How long does it take the other EGRTV values to be learned?

Thanks again 

 

[Tizer]

The MAF and MAP pressures are ok but the Differential Pressure across the DPF is nonsense. It should be less than 0.5 at Idle and if it ever exceeded 15 then the car would go into Limp Mode and you would get a fault code. 819 kPa does not make sense.

There could be something wrong with the sensor or maybe a previous owner has removed the DPF internals and done something to the software to stop a fault  being logged. Other than that I do not have an explanation for it.

[mcyates]

36 minutes ago, Tizer said:

The MAF and MAP pressures are ok but the Differential Pressure across the DPF is nonsense. It should be less than 0.5 at Idle and if it ever exceeded 15 then the car would go into Limp Mode and you would get a fault code. 819 kPa does not make sense.

There could be something wrong with the sensor or maybe a previous owner has removed the DPF internals and done something to the software to stop a fault  being logged. Other than that I do not have an explanation for it.

Thanks for the reply, I don't think you seen the message I posted above yours, I must have sent it as you where writing your reply. 

I managed to record a video of ForScan with all the live data.  Hope this helps I added VSS.OBDII which is my vehicle speed 👍

 

[Tizer]

2 hours ago, mcyates said:

Thanks for the reply, I don't think you seen the message I posted above yours, I must have sent it as you where writing your reply. 

I managed to record a video of ForScan with all the live data.  Hope this helps I added VSS.OBDII which is my vehicle speed 👍

 

 

2 hours ago, mcyates said:

Thanks for the reply, I don't think you seen the message I posted above yours, I must have sent it as you where writing your reply. 

I managed to record a video of ForScan with all the live data.  Hope this helps I added VSS.OBDII which is my vehicle speed 👍

 

That is better, the scaling for the DPF PID in the first photo  must have been x1000.

Everything looks ok except the DPF. At Idle ideally the pressure should be near 0, but for an eleven year old car less than 1 would be acceptable. It may be that the sensor is reading wrong or the Learned Values are wrong, but either way it should not cause drivability issues unless it logs a fault code. If it was that clogged at Idle then I would expect to show much higher values under load.

For reference the MAP should briefly peak somewhere near 240 under extreme load, but you probably would need to be driving up a steep hill at speed under full throttle to see that.

Here is a link to an interesting  post on the FORScan Forum that should make things clearer. Cleaning clogged DPF on Ford Focus II 1.6 TDCI - FORScan forum

Incidentally your car was not trying to do a DPF Regeneration during that recorded drive. 

2 hours ago, mcyates said:

Sorry forgot to mention at idle  the DP_DPF fluctuates from 819.2 to 0.0 and the EGRTV_FLOV also fluctuates between 0.0 and 200 when at idle. But when I add revs they go to about 1.5  for DP_DPF and 0.3 for EGRTV_FLOV. 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YNGAPPpVCYu9iLDt7

How long does it take the other EGRTV values to be learned?

Thanks again 

 

The EGR TV is in the Inlet manifold near the MAP Sensor, not part of the EGR but does control the amount of recirculation and the % opening  was behaving correctly in the video. I do not know why the First Learning of it was fluctuating. 

[mcyates]

Thanks again for your reply. I haven't got the graphs at hand but on the journey I just carried out the DPF pressure was going from 2-5kpa to 800kpa then dropping down after a 5-10 seconds. Drove the car on the motorway for 2 mins and got the following two errors and limp mode with "Engine Malfunction" on the dashboard with the check engine light.

P244A - Diesel Particulate Filter Differential Pressure Too Low
P2002 - Diesel - Particulate Filter Efficiency Below Threshold Bank 1

Is it worth getting terraclean or someone similar to come and clean the DPF? 

If its going to cost too much i'm probably going to scrap the car. I have another car and don't really need 2 cars at the moment but I think i'm going to try the DPF clean first.

[Tizer]

The readings you are seeing are nonsense. If there was 800 kPa difference across the DPF the car would stall.

If the car was mine I would check the sensor electrical connections and wiring and also the two tubes that lead to it for leaks and if there are exhaust leaks near the DPF they will be obvious to the ear and could also cause faulty readings.

The fault codes suggest that there is not enough of a pressure differential, not too much which is what the live data is showing. If there are no exhaust leaks then the next most likely cause is either a defective sensor or wiring to it, or either someone has removed the internals of the DPF or fitted a cheap aftermarket one.

There should be a procedure to reset the DPF Learned values in FORScan. This would be the cheapest option if you are satisfied that the sensor, its wiring and tubes are ok. 

[mcyates]

5 minutes ago, Tizer said:

The readings you are seeing are nonsense. If there was 800 kPa difference across the DPF the car would stall.

If the car was mine I would check the sensor electrical connections and wiring and also the two tubes that lead to it for leaks and if there are exhaust leaks near the DPF they will be obvious to the ear and could also cause faulty readings.

The fault codes suggest that there is not enough of a pressure differential, not too much which is what the live data is showing. If there are no exhaust leaks then the next most likely cause is either a defective sensor or wiring to it, or either someone has removed the internals of the DPF or fitted a cheap aftermarket one.

There should be a procedure to reset the DPF Learned values in FORScan. This would be the cheapest option if you are satisfied that the sensor, its wiring and tubes are ok. 

Okay i'll have a good look tomorrow and check the electrical connections and pipes. 

Thanks for all your help and suggestions so far. 👍

[mcyates]

Drove from middlesbrough to Faslane again today. The P0299-60 came up "Engine Malfunction" and entered limp mode roughly after spending 10 mins on a dual carriageway then accelerating off a roundabout. I've got two graphs I made from data from Forscan and put into excel. 

At the start my DPF was 800+ again, i've checked the pipes and connections, all were good and free from defects. you can see I had 3 Regen cycles whilst on the motorway. And after the 900+kpa spike went away, it did not come back, this is the first long journey i've done with the new EGR valve in place. I'll get a close up graph of the DPF pressure if you need one. The DPF was sitting 1-3 bar but then it would climb and then the regen would start and knock it back down so I believe that's working as it should. 

The second graph is of rev speed and the turbo vanes, which doesn't really move! 

Tonight i'm going to take off the air inlet hose to the turbo and have a look at the vanes. I'm thinking I now have a defective turbo as for the past month, probably just under, the turbo hasn't been kicking in. It used to kick in when I used to clear the P042F error, but no more.

I'll let you know what I find with the Turbo!! 

If it is the turbo where is the best place to get a cheap second hand one? Breaker? eBay? amazon? This car is work ***** all but if I can get it out of going into limp mode all the time without spending hundreds and hundreds then i'll stick at trying to fix it!

Thanks

[mcyates]

Just checked the Vanes on the intake side of the turbo, they all look damage free and the turbo turns by hand. hmmm!!!!

[mcyates]

Took a freeze frame when the underboost when P0229 popped up again (Turbo Underboost).

As you can see the MAP is pretty low at 25kpa. The freeze frame before this which i didn't take a photo of was 20kpa. 

I drove from Faslane to Edinburgh today and the first time it happened I was ragging it up hill, I seem to get the turbo kind of kicking above 3,000 Revs. but the MAP then didn't go below 100 and I had the same warnings. The DPF pressure was going to 819.2 then back down to 0 when I was driving. I've noticed at idle the pressure sensor reads 819.2kpa if I rev it goes to 1-2kpa then drops to 0 and then 819.2. I reckon its probably *****. 

This is my Girlfriends car and her dad drove it for years before she did (long story) but she said the electrics are ***** on it, nut I don't know how they could be *****!

I might just give in on it and drive it as it is, its mainly just a car for me to travel to scotland and to take the dogs out. 

I think its death is long overdue haha

[Tizer]

They readings do not make any sense, there may be a problem with either the car or that reader or some of the sensors.

The MAP when not running as well as at idle should be the same as atmospheric pressure, which is approx 100 kPa. The only way it could go to 25 would be if the Throttle Valve almost fully closed and it would most probably stall if that happened unless it just closed for a second and opened again before the car stalled. You can monitor this with FORScan but it is not very convenient with the Laptop version. If you had the whole journey monitored, including the Throttle Valve you could rule that in or out. 

Under the conditions you describe I would expect it to be climbing to near its design maximum of around 240 kPa. 

The Differential Pressure sensor reading 800 kPa is also nonsense.  

[mcyates]

11 minutes ago, Tizer said:

They readings do not make any sense, there may be a problem with either the car or that reader or some of the sensors.

The MAP when not running as well as at idle should be the same as atmospheric pressure, which is approx 100 kPa. The only way it could go to 25 would be if the Throttle Valve almost fully closed and it would most probably stall if that happened unless it just closed for a second and opened again before the car stalled. You can monitor this with FORScan but it is not very convenient with the Laptop version. If you had the whole journey monitored, including the Throttle Valve you could rule that in or out. 

Under the conditions you describe I would expect it to be climbing to near its design maximum of around 240 kPa. 

The Differential Pressure sensor reading 800 kPa is also nonsense.  

Well tomorrow or Thursday i'll be doing the 230 mile journey back to Middlesbrough. Usually when i've looked at live data the MAP has been at or slightly above 100kpa. 

I'll set up the laptop again and plug it in for the whole journey.

So i'll put on it:

DPF  Differential Pressure, MAP, MAF, EGR TV, VGTDC, EGR TV, EGRV_FLOV, VSS, RPM, Torque, PPFT then I can make graphs on Excel then put them on here, i'll upload the spreadsheet too, then have a right good gander at it all. 

Is it worth me disconnecting the battery from the engine for 5 mins to see if it sorts anything out as when I used to get the errors, it would go slow like it is now then as soon as I cleared the errors it would instantly get the power back. Maybe something has not cleared properly?

Thanks for your continued help 👍