Hi

Whilst I've scoured forums for the last year I thought at last I should ask directly - Any help much appreciated.

12 months ago the injector seal went on my 2.2 2014 SMAX Titanium Sport X (96k). I replaced it, but broke the head on injector (I was keen to have a go but little experience!). Got an ebay replacement and then put back together, but then a juddering and loss of power at 2000rpm. Fine on idle but under load it chokes at around 2krpm and takes quite a fair few seconds after coming off gas to pick up again.

It still has the same issue now (a year later) despite 6 garages looking at it and thousands spent (on a car I love but not worth more than £6k).

Firstly I got someone to programme the injector (maybe that was problem) and then when didn't work got a proper Bosch £200 reconditioned one but still same issue.

After that I saw sense and took it to a garage and I have had......... new Fuel Filter, new Uplift pump, injectors all taken out and tested, high pressure fuel pump (recon), Turbo (recon - twice to get another actuator), EGR valve, DPF clean out etc. It truly is trigger's broom now.

Underboost appears as fault (which I understand can mean many things). I am about to bring it back from latest garage who said I needed brand new (£1k) turbo because I cant believe that it would show identical issue now (loss of power) after being broken initially (coincidentally when injector seal went) and then also not work after 2 recon replacements (by reputed recon guys in Nottingham). Second time to change the actuator. I know I have caused problem by having a go myself and also taking to multiple garages, but everyone ended up petering out enthusiasm to sort and my car sat for weeks in their yards.

I keep going back to the point that the same problem exists now that it had on day one (14th June 2024) so wonder about injectors being wrong ones (I think there are different euro 4 /5 or different ones for Freelander and Peugeots that use same engine) or programming being duff. Anyway I love that car and should have given up a long time ago, but desperate to resolve. I am picking up again from latest garage on Thursday so any insight or ideas would be absolutely brilliant!

Thanks Luke

Welcome!
After all of that expertise, work and expense, all I can suggest is to start to get some real data (Forscan + V-Linker lead)
There are a couple of threads running with similar (but not identical - beware!) threads on fuel rail issues:
https://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/topic/161554-no-fuel-to-injectors-16tdci-connect/

https://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/topic/62431-diesel-fuel-return-pipes-disconnecting/

https://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/topic/26156-leak-off-pipe-problems/

They detail multiple parameters/sensors and information that we (I) think should be collected to see what is going on in the fuel system.
This may need to be extended to your turbo, EGR etc systems.
Without fault codes (are there any?) then live data, then detailed diagnostic work, anything suggested is a guess (which sounds like it has been happening a LOT)
Hopefully, you can look at those threads, note what information may be relevant, decide what to do first and come back with that information giving people on here some chance of making positive suggestions, other than "Part X MAY fix it!" at your cost...

That's great - Thanks Shearers 

Its a good point and I haven't been party to how much true diagnostic work has been done by garages but am inclined to get my own Forscan and go from there.

Thanks for fuel rail links too - will read 

Cheers

Luke

 

@unofix says:

FORScan (for use with Windows Laptop) : https://forscan.org/download.html

It's what many Ford owners use including some Ford technicians.

• vLinker FS, cable for laptop: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vgate-vLinker-Adapter-FORScan-MS-CAN/dp/B0952P4MLP

OR

• OBDLINK EX, cable for laptop: https://www.amazon.co.uk/OBDLINK-EX-FORScan-OBD-Adapter/dp/B081VQVD3F/ref=sr_1_5

For diagnostic use only:

• vLinker FD, for android phone: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vgate-Bluetooth-vLinker-Scanner-Diagnostic/dp/B08H82WC8L
• vLinker FD+, for iPhone: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vgate-Bluetooth-vLinker-Scanner-Diagnostic/dp/B08H8JHWP2

 

P.S. We love our S-MAX too!

 

So I have got Forscan and cable and have pulled data relating to Fuel Rail variables on basis of links kindly sent over.

Not sure whether these variables are right but here they are - I have pulled screenshots of start mid and end of straight run through the gears, pushing heavily on accelerator to induce issue - ie choking and stuttering. it still gained speed but slowly when stuttering. By way of reminder I can pretty much avoid it by using under 2k revs and being very gentle in every gear. I drove 55 miles on Thursday doing this although when over egged it, it choked on dual carriageway and scarily lost speed down to 30mph from 60mph.

Start of run

Middle of run

Towards End of run

And graph view if helpful of middle

Seemed to me that desired and delivered fuel pressure looked like they aligned.

Only thing I could see was the Fuel Rail Temperature sensor voltage looked more stable on a good run vs a bad run, however I know very little so any help would be much appreciated.

Cheers

Luke 

 

 

Also meant to mention that something else I did right at the start when the issue started (after replacing injector seal and then injector) was that I put a new Fuel return pipe on the car. I'd broken the clips that hold it to the injector (easy to do I understadn). Anyway I thought that given the 2.2 Freelander / Evoque was a similar PSA engine I bought a replacement fuel return pipe specifically titled for that car. It was £30 vs £100 for Ford direct version and seemed okay ish. I am now thinking that this might have been the most expensive mistake to save a few quid ie reading a bit more that the engines are quite different I wondered if this was a constraint as the load on the engine builds. The Freelander is 157bhp vs 197bhp so wondered if the throughput - even if simply the return might be creating more pressure back through the system?

As I say I am not particularly technical but thought i'd mention this too.

Hopefully this helps give someone who might be able to help a bit more info too I guess.

Luke

Firstly, I suggest using the "table" view of Forscan as you get a smaller display (meaning more PIDs can be displayed AND each one gets a full title which helps explanation)
The voltages, apart from battery are likely to be sensor outputs so not relevant (unless a sensor value is later found to be suspect and the sensor then needs investigation so just confuse the issue - well for me!)

As you say, the fuel rail pressures look acceptable.
I don't think the return pipes are any part of the problem.
I don't know what the TURBO-SOV-MES is but it doesn't seem to change from 0.
Are there no fault codes when the problem appears?

I'd get a page of PIDs set up to include, if available, at least:

• Engine RPM and desired
• Throttle position
• Fuel rail desired and actual
• Turbo vane position
• EGR position
• Coolant temp
• Ambient air temp
• Intake air temp
• DPF pressure differential & soot loadings open and closed  loop
• MAP
• Barometric pressure
• Boost pressure actuator
• Battery volts
• Total distance

I'm suggesting this is taken at:

• Ignition on (to see if any sensors are showing silly results)
• Idle
• 3000 RPM
• Significant point where the problem is ocurring.

There may be other PIDs I've missed and hopefully someone else can correct or add?
There is likely to be a "throttle body" in the intake system that, if it is sticking may cause problems such as you mention but that's just a guess (and, as other will know, I don't do guesses, I want data that justifies any further work😉)

I don't know what the cause is but this is a starting point to look for patterns and anything out of the ordinary or that isn't changing as expected, jammed etc etc.
I hoping others will be able to confirm anything that comes out of this...

That's fantastic. Thanks Shearers.

Sorry should have made clear that this issue has, from the start been throwing a P0299 Underboost fault. 

I should have also mentioned that in the long list of work, the most recent was a new throttle body (the last garage took car apart and found no butterfly in the one in situ.)

I will now test along the lines you suggest and go from there.

Appreciated. After a year of problems I have hope....

Regards

Luke

Hi 

I have just taken readings for those variables suggested (I think I have these correct).

At Idle

At 3000rpm (which initiates the problem as well - it started coughing and then revs fell back at it struggled until came off the gas)

Be interested to hear your thoughts if anything stands out

Thanks again

Luke

 

Without looking at your latest data...Underboost if it still holds, (does it)  is the biggest clue so a focus on intake leaks, turbo boost, vane position,  etc as given in:
https://www.obd-codes.com/p0299

I wonder what happened to the butterfly (could it be jammed somewhere or what happened to it and why?)🤔

Looking at the data:
The throttle position hasn't moved - why  - very strange? 79% at idle??? Does it ever change?
The EGR position is opposite to what I imagined likely wrong (closed at high revs, open at idle)? Is this expected, anyone? This is mentioned as a cause of the code as above???
DPF looks OK.
Turbo vanes hardly move - stuck?
Turbo shut off valve always zero (but at no load, things are very different to load conditions)
The MAP is going up as revs increase but unsure if that is correct at 177kPa  - it may well be at 1.77 Bar (ours is only 15 kPa and I've always had a concern as it seems lower than atmospheric but engine runs perfectly) Implies overboost rather than under? (some sensor issue?)

Hopefully this is not data overkill masking a simple problem - like checking for leaks/obstructions/intercooler/turbo and EGR moving correctly, vacuum control solenoids, pipework, throttle valve,  EGR  and turbo has been re-learned after new ones fitted?

What happens when under load (get someone else to photo the screen - safety?)

That's all I can see which probably doesn't help much however either someone else of here or elsewhere may be able to use this or suggest the next step?
 

Based on dealing with something that doesn't appear to be working first I am looking at the new throttle body that has just been put on by the garage. Given its static 78% level I thought sensible to check like you'd suggested.

Tried to relearn the throttle body to the ecu with various steps taking battery off etc briefly at lunchtime but don't think I've cracked it as have just taken pipe off bottom of throttle body then filmed up it to see butterfly and it confirmed (when revved) that it is not moving.

Anyone with steps for retraining throttle body much appreciated. I tried those below but struggled - might have been me. Will try again this evening.

Thanks 

Luke

 

Turn on ignition, DO NOT start engine

TURN OFF ALL ACCESSORIES (Lights, Radio A/C, fan etc etc)

Lower drivers window, close doors

Disconnect battery negative cable

Cover negative pole on battery so as to prevent contact with cable

Disconnect battery positive cable

Touch negative a positive battery cable together and hold for about 5 minutes (make sure they cannot touch the battery terminals

Reconnect positive cable

Reconnect negative cable

TURN ON IGNITION BUT DO NOT START ENGINE

Ensure all the accessories are still turned off

Start engine but DO NOT TOUCH THROTTLE PEDAL - at all, for any reason, if the engine takes forever to start just let it crank until it finally starts

Leave car to idle until it reaches normal operating temperature DO NOT TOUCH THROTTLE PEDAL 

Turn on a/c and fan DO NOT TOUCH THROTTLE PEDAL

Leave to idle for a further one minute

Turn off engine, remove key, open and close driver's door, restart engine as normal

 

Is this not a Diesel?, if so then the Throttle Plate is most probably doing what it is supposed to. 

The only time it normally moves is when changing Gear, at switch off and during Regeneration. 

You can check this looking at the Live Data in FORScan. 

I noticed that you have contributed on anther thread?

It the plate is stuck in one position and can't be moved under relearn or control then it may well be the fault (or part of it)

Is it 78% open or closed (if closed, that restriction would be a worry to me)?

Please be sure to keep this thread consistent and update on progress.

Thanks Tizer - Yes it is a diesel - 2.2. Okay that's helpful. I didn't know that. That would make sense that I saw it change momentarily when driving and when I look back at the data it did seem to move at this time. So maybe it's fine.

Shearers - The 78% appears to be open having taken the pipe off and looked at it.

Sorry will keep to this thread - am new to this!

The help is much appreciated.

So if the butterfly or plate is doing the right thing sounds I need to look elsewhere...

Thanks both - will run a Forscan again with more variables and see if I can see anything.

I did wonder where the throttle plate went (the last garage said it was missing so thats why they changed it for new) !!

Luke 

 

1 hour ago, lukefjohnson said:

Thanks both - will run a Forscan again with more variables and see if I can see anything.

When you do add the Accelerator Pedal Position because when viewing the Data when any anomalies occur it is very useful to know not only what Speed and RPM  things went wrong but what your right foot was doing at the time i.e. either constant cruising or accelerating or coasting with your foot off the gas.

Will do 👍

So I have just taken a bunch more Turbo related data and it seems that it must be in this area in that the below graphs show turbo activity shortly after start on the yellow and green lines (Variable Geometry Turbo A position and Variable Geometry Turbocharger metrics respectively - presumably the same feed)

The first two graphs show shortly after start and the car working fine, but after pushing it into load, the choking and then limping back home (3rd graph) without turbo support.

So I guess the issue is now how best to try and identify issue.

The issue was there on the days after I replaced injector seal - fuel filters and both fuel pumps changed etc etc before reconditioning the turbo at Midlands Turbo in Nottingham. 

We had same issue after this and then another garage suggested actuator so Midlands Turbo took turbo back and checked over turbo AND changed actuator again for it to return and have the exact same issue.

Whilst wont rule out a new turbo as the resolution completely I want to check other potential reasons why it works fine not under load but then has problems when it is. 

Any ideas of variables I could focus in on to assess? 

Could boost pressure valves go and cause similar symptoms?

Thanks again for your help

 

 

 

42 minutes ago, lukefjohnson said:

So I have just taken a bunch more Turbo related data and it seems that it must be in this area in that the below graphs show turbo activity shortly after start on the yellow and green lines (Variable Geometry Turbo A position and Variable Geometry Turbocharger metrics respectively - presumably the same feed)

The first two graphs show shortly after start and the car working fine, but after pushing it into load, the choking and then limping back home (3rd graph) without turbo support.

So I guess the issue is now how best to try and identify issue.

The issue was there on the days after I replaced injector seal - fuel filters and both fuel pumps changed etc etc before reconditioning the turbo at Midlands Turbo in Nottingham. 

We had same issue after this and then another garage suggested actuator so Midlands Turbo took turbo back and checked over turbo AND changed actuator again for it to return and have the exact same issue.

Whilst wont rule out a new turbo as the resolution completely I want to check other potential reasons why it works fine not under load but then has problems when it is. 

Any ideas of variables I could focus in on to assess? 

Could boost pressure valves go and cause similar symptoms?

Thanks again for your help

 

 

 

Can't open your images.

The key thing for turbo IMO is the demanded vane position being mirrored by the actual (it's a closed loop control system?)
Variable vane turbos don't have a wastegate? The vane position is the sole control method?
I don't know what a boost pressure regulator is unless it's the normally brown vacuum operated device that moves the vanes to the correct position to generate the correct boost pressure (as evidenced by MAP?) If has a filter that can sometimes become blocked?
This is operated by a PWM signal to allow the correct vacuum level to operate the vanes.
I still don't understand the choking - does this happen and stick (why does it stick?) when more power is demanded? Why doesn't the fault go off when power is taken off, or is it in limp mode by then?
Is it still an underboost code?
I'm still concerned about the fate of the flap (and don't think you can forget about that throttle aspect?
Sorry, more questions than answers.
I'm at the limit of my understanding (or even beyond) so hopefully others can keep helping?

Tizer - Images attached this time - hopefully you can see them now.

 

Shearers - Thanks for this - it is really helping despite maybe not feeling like it does.

I like you are concerned about throttle butterfly - have pulled pipes that connect intercooler to throttle body to see if fallen down there and interfering at times but no sight. I have a endscope coming tomorrow to link to phone to look back up the throttle body into intake manifold.

Yes - I still have an Underboost code P0299.

I think maybe my description of choking is confusing. Now I've seen these graphs it seems to the loss of turbo under load that feels like choking. I think you're right that it's going into limp mode when too much of this happens. I saw (and have seen a couple of times over the year) Engine Service warning this lunch time, when after lots of loss of turbo I had to literally limp home (I can see on graphs as turbo is flatlining).

When I mentioned boost pressure valves I am just randomly wondering about other things that might influence turbo - you guys know far more than me so i might be completely wrong - called a pressure convertor valve on this ebay one - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/335934565535

Thanks

Might be barking up the wrong tree but having the same issue after turbo reconditioned twice along with actuator it seems this post seems to talk about pressure convertor valve leaking causing underboost error?

Whilst I will look to check for throttle body butterfly, this might be another line of enquiry (aside from replacing the things that have already been replaced!)

 

I'm a bit lost off with the graphs need a key to list them?
If I have it right Yellow and green are turbo vane and follow each other but don't seem to change much around 80%?
Orange is throttle?

Lets try to get the butterfly issue bottomed first.

Turbo not varying much, as, the indicated fault code, underboost isn't being tackled?
Mityvac or similar would allow actuator movement range to be tested, vacuum in the pipe from the boost control valve (what do you know, controls boost so a potential suspect!) to be measured and the valve output to be tested - if it has a filter, one above doesn't? e-bay one does? Need to know what yours is, as said - may be worth pulling filter cap off - risk of damage!

Hi 

apologies the graphs are in wrong order. graphs 1&3 are before issue occurred on test drive and then 2 shows as issue occurs and then turbo activity flatlines and I limped home without turbo.

yes orange is throttle, and green and yellow are turbo. 
 

That’s great - will look for throttle butterfly and then look at boost pressure  valve as you suggest. Have ordered vacuum tester and Will check if filter too. 
 

thanks

Morning

I've used the endoscope to look up into Intake Manifold via the EGR exhaust port and had a look around but no sign of missing throttle butterfly. Endoscope kept getting covered with accumulated gunk inside intake so could only get so far. Noticed EGR exhaust pipe really held only on by 1 bolt as other too small and also spinning so have ordered longer one to hopefully get down to where thread okay.

Also MAP sensor was really loose and damaged o ring - have tightened and replaced ring.

This seems to have removed the yellow engine warning light, however problem still exists - car goes directly to 'Engine Malfunction - Service Now' when hits point of limp mode / lack of turbo at c2500rpm.

Plugged into friends Autel and it flagged underboost P0299 as usual but also DPF at 83% which I have kind of being ignoring because garages have cleared this out to date and not helped issue. I guess I had assumed it was a result of another issue rather than the problem. But thinking about it I assume it needs cleaning out to eliminate it being the current cause of going into limp mode?!

Have a Mityvac now so will test boost control valve this weekend too.

!!!