Jump to content
Do Not Sell My Personal Information


Strange EGR Problems mk2.5 1.6 TDCI


andystephenson
 Share

Recommended Posts

I have a 2010 Focus 1.6 TDCI and I'm looking for some help diagnosing some EGR troubles.

It started a couple of months ago when the car wouldn't start, with an 'engine malfunction', which the local garage had diagnosed as the EGR stuck open. I had the EGR valve replaced and thought that would be the end of it. After a couple of weeks, when driving to work I noticed a sudden lack in power or boost and it would struggle to maintain speed up a hill. Turning the car off and then on again seems to eradicate the problem, with the noticeable boost in acceleration back. Over the past couple of months this has been happening sporadically so I've bought a modified ELM cable and found the following error codes:

P1402 - Exhaust Gas Recirculation Metering Orifice Restricted

P0490 - Exhaust Gas Recirculation Control Circuit High

P042F - EGR Control Stuck Closed

I took the car back the garage yesterday and they've replaced the EGR valve again under warranty, however I went for a drive last night only for the exact same error codes to appear. The garage were at a bit of a loss before they replaced the EGR valve the second time and only done it as they weren't sure what else it could be.

Does anyone know of any other problems, maybe outside of the EGR valve that could cause it to act this way? Thanks in advance, this is making me tear my hair out!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, iantt said:

did the garage check the egr cooler for carbon buildup/blockages, and did they reset the egr valve position learnt values? 

alot of garages just chuck an egr valve on and dont actually fix the cause. 

I don't know if they've done either of those, but I have just tried resetting the egr valve learnt values with forscan and its seems to have run okay. Do I need to engine running to do this reset properly, or just ignition on? I didn't have the engine running when I've just done it.

I hope this has fixed it, as it has played up twice already today! I'll take it out for a drive shortly and hope it stays okay.

Cheers Ian!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Taken the car out yesterday and today after doing the reset of EGR valve adaptations and shortly after getting up to motorway speeds and same thing happens again, really down on power. Strangely enough, if I reset the fault codes when driving the car instantly returns back to normal. It does sound like its something to do with the learnt values and everything appears to be mechanically fine :wacko:.

When monitoring any sensors to do with the EGR, only the 'Status of last learning of EGR valve' show as learnt, the 'status of first learning of EGR valve' shows Not Learnt, might this help anyone have an idea what it could be?

-Andy

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I found this over at the RAC forums:-

Last EGR solenoid valve adaption. Indicates if the upper stop of the motor has been learnt.
First EGR solenoid valve adaption. Indicates if the lower stop of the motor has been learnt.

Sounds like the EGR valve learning process isn't completing fully for whatever reason. More info here:- 

http://www.rac.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?15928-Peugeot-3008-EGR-Valve-Problems

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've made a FORScan log showing all Pids relating to the EGR. The EGR Closes at 274 seconds which is when the RGE Stuck closed fault occurs. Hopefully someone can notice if these values show anything out of the ordinary. https://www.dropbox.com/s/spn2g20qksc6v4e/egrlog.fsl?dl=0

Just to note, I don't get the Orifice Restricted code any more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 9 months later...

Take egr to bits yourself it's a doddle four bolts spray with egr cleaner make sure all clean and it's spinning freely.

bolt back up I even used egr blanking plate n go give your car a good boot for about 50mile should be ok

Link to comment
Share on other sites


10 hours ago, MarkR said:

Did you ever get sorted with your problem? I've the exact same issue on mine now

 

Like David says, it is quite easy to remove & clean, and even to test it if you have some electrical test equipment.

A week or two ago, someone posted a report with photos on cleaning an EGR on the 1.6. I have it stored on my other computer (200 miles away atm!), and could dig it out if needed. (Assuming it is the 1.6, your profile misses that important bit out!)

If that does not work, I would try disconnecting the MAF next. The MAF is a key sensor in controlling the flow through the valve, and a damaged or dirty MAF could make it look (to the ECU) like the EGR was not working. Disconnecting the MAF will cause a MAF DTC, but if it is faulty, the car will drive better, as it then only uses the MAP & IAT (air temp) to determine the flow.

The throttle valve (anti-shudder valve) is another possible culprit.

 

On 23/04/2016 at 2:46 PM, andystephenson said:

I've made a FORScan log showing all Pids relating to the EGR. The EGR Closes at 274 seconds which is when the RGE Stuck closed fault occurs.

I have had a look at the Forscan data, I can see it all shut down at 274s, but not why.

The spiking on the throttle valve (TV) is interesting, I seem to recall someone else had something like that, and either it or the nearby intercooler bypass valve was stuck.

I don't have the 1.6, so can not get the same PIDs, and am not sure what the full meaning is, eg EGRVR vs EGRVP, and ...PCT.

 

egr-1-6.PNG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Hi everybody,

sorry for my english, i'm not british...:)

andystephenson, did you solve the egr problem? I'm having your exact same experience...egr stuck open and substituted with a new one...since than the disaster: codes P0490-61 ( voltage circuit high ), P042F-61 ( stuck closed ) and also P1412-61 (EGR Valve Frozen). I'm sure the garage didn't anything to the cooler but they performed reset egr adaptions. It's several days i'm fighting with it now because the garage has no other ideas at the moment. They installed a egr branded Pierburg ( model 7.24809.39.0) that costs even more than the Valeo, but in internet i find everywhere that the Valeo 700412 is the genuine one for my engine ( 1.6 TDCi, 109ps with DPF ). Could it be that it wants the Valeo? I also performed adaptions reset with Forscan but nothing changed. What is really crazy is that these errors are not generated while driving....I performed several tests permanently monitoring the engine with Forscan and if I delete the DTCs when just started I can drive 'almost' normally even houndred kms, only when the engine is off and ignition back on they re-appear. If I don't reset codes the car runs poorly, no boost, some fans are starting and the other day even a DPF regen started with DPF pressure absolutely low ( 1-2 Kpa ). What I discovered later is that the EGR never opens totally, while driving it can get maximum to 60% and with manual control from Forscan it gets only up to 70%...so it looks like it's really out of calibration...But I really don't know what is the best to do: to ask the garage to mount a Valeo 700412 and see how it goes or go to mother Ford and hope a clever mechanic hiding in the garage will solve the mystery but of course with a very long bill? I heard also that some people solved this same issue by updating the PCM software of the car ( at Ford of course ), which probably cointains different calibration values than the ones from 2008...Really don't know what to do...Any advice is welcome...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, omerone said:

What is really crazy is that these errors are not generated while driving....I performed several tests permanently monitoring the engine with Forscan and if I delete the DTCs when just started I can drive 'almost' normally even houndred kms, only when the engine is off and ignition back on they re-appear.

I have found with the 1.8, that the ECU tests the EGR just after the ignition is turned off, and it is only if it misbehaves during this test that the Error codes (DTCs) appear. Odd behavior during driving is usually ignored. It could be the 1.6 is similar. It is hard to test the valve properly when driving, too much else is going on, and the valve is frequently moving. When the engine is stopped is the only time the valve can be fully exercised.

Pierburg is a reputable brand, and it claims the valve is suitable for the 1.6TDCI in Focus 2005 to 2012, for both the 90 & 100 HP versions. Before buying a Valeo, I would check out the wiring and connector as far a possible, I would look for other faults, in particular the throttle valve and the intercooler by-pass valve (if fitted). Also look for significant air leaks in the pipes & hoses.

With a simple variable power supply and multimeter, these valves can be tested, to see how much voltage & current is needed to energise them, and to see wht the feedback voltage from the pot is. Ideally I would compare the old valve (if it is not in the skip!) with the new one, on the bench, to see if there actually is a major "calibration" difference.

When paying that much money to a garage for a job, you expect it to be done properly. If they had fitted a cheap Ebay clone for £60, then maybe there would be more reason to suspect the new valve.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Peter,

thank you for the reply. I think you are right concerning the EGR test after ignition off. I remember, when everything was working fine, when turning off the engine clear 3-4 click-clack sounds were happening: this was the EGR test and cleaning operation the ECU was doing by closing and opening some times the valve. This is not happening anymore. All the checks you are suggesting are good points and should be checked. I'm afraid at the garage ( it's a small local one ) there's nobody with good electrical capability to check all the wiring till the ECU. How to check the throttle valve? Which parameter values should be ok in Forscan? I don't understand how other valves can influence the electrical EGR valve test that takes place when the engine has stopped already...

I was checking all pipes for leaks also with engine working but seems all fine....I found a bit of oil in the Turbo intake coming from the rocker cover down to the intake, but the mechanic from the garage said this is nothing for what he normally could see on this type of engine on Fords, Peugeots, Citroens...

Yesterday I tried to manually command the EGR from Forscan with engine on idle ( only after clearing the famous DTC errors ) and it opens from 0 to 70%, and I can clearly hear difference in engine's sound while doing that, so the valve is moving, it is not stuck, but it opens only till 70 not 100%. I think this is the problem...the test when turning off the engine cannot be performed and subsequently the valve is not activated on the next ignition on. I'm not a mechanic but my feeling is that is a purely electric/electronical problem. I suspect that Pierburg valve is not fully compatible...I found on the internet that that Pierburg is comparable to the Valeo 700444 model ( mounted on Fiesta, Fusion ) while Valeo lists only the 700412 as compatible for the Focus Euro4. I know that the engines are pretty much the same between all of those models but probably there is difference in the electronics. 

I think I need to find a good car electrician and check the wiring ( i've inspected the connector by myself, looks like new ) and than think ahead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, omerone said:

I don't understand how other valves can influence the electrical EGR valve test that takes place when the engine has stopped already...

You are right there, it is a bit woolly thinking by me to first say the DTCs occur at power-off test, then to blame the throttle valve used while the engine is on! However, I increasingly do not trust the software in these cars, and the 1.6TDCI perhaps less than any other. So nothing can really be ruled out until the problem is identified and fixed. The diagnostics are just a guide that helps identify the more likely suspects, but can be misleading sometimes. I am pretty sure the throttle valve is used to help control the EGR flowrate, and testing it is less painful than buying another very expensive EGR valve!

It comes up on Forscan as EGR_TV, or something like that. It could be tested or logged that way, also I think it is fairly easy to disconnect a duct and inspect & test it directly.

1 hour ago, omerone said:

the valve is moving, it is not stuck, but it opens only till 70 not 100%. I think this is the problem...the test when turning off the engine cannot be performed and subsequently the valve is not activated on the next ignition on. I'm not a mechanic but my feeling is that is a purely electric/electronical problem. I suspect that Pierburg valve is not fully compatible...I found on the internet that that Pierburg is comparable to the Valeo 700444 model ( mounted on Fiesta, Fusion ) while Valeo lists only the 700412 as compatible for the Focus Euro4.

That is sounding like a logical deduction, but it leads to the most expensive answer. I wonder if Forscan can test it with Key-on, engine off. If so, the valve could be removed, and the test run to see if it is opening fully. The 70% may be due to the valve not opening enough (sticking, or motor drive voltage or current is wrong), or it could be the setting of the position feedback pot. Or it could be a software limitation, for some reason it won't try to push it past 70%. If it opens fully, but reads 70%, then it does suggest the valve is the wrong type. Though I would still check that the right 5v & 0v signals are getting to the valve ok first. (The pot is usually energised with 5v.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Peter,

tried today to command also the throttle valve for Forscan, infact is possible to command the EGR valve and also the throttle valve, while engine on idle. When i was changing throttle valve value from 0 to 100% the engine was changing sound and stalled-died when value was 100%. I think the throttle valve is ok. I've identified it's position, should it be good to dismount it and give a clean? I could measure for the 5V if they are coming in on ignition on, but how can i do that? Can I unplug the connector and simply measure what comes on the cables? Which pins should I measure?

Thank you very much for helping

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, omerone said:

I could measure for the 5V if they are coming in on ignition on, but how can i do that? Can I unplug the connector and simply measure what comes on the cables? Which pins should I measure?

Yes, the 5v and ground signals should be on the connector when unplugged, they come from the ECU.

egr-cd.png

 

 

 

EGR-16tdci.PNG

Interesting test with the throttle valve, and stalling the engine certainly suggests it closes ok.

Using a suitable pin (called a back-probe), it is possible to make connection with the connector contacts from behind the connector, without damaging it or the wire, so they can be tested when plugged in. Then the Vout signal could be tested, as this comes from the EGR valve. Ideally this would be compared to the old valve, but I guess that is gone now. Without a known good reference, it is hard to know what the voltage should be. I know what my 1.8 does, but your 1.6 will be different.

Google back-probing or backprobing to find out more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Peter,

thanks for the nice drawings and the back-probe advice, i'll try.

So if I got it right I should have 5V between pins 5 and 1 and a Vout between 4 and 1? I'll ask the guys in the garage if the old EGR is still around....but that one was stuck open, does this influence the Vout that I should get from it?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, omerone said:

I should have 5V between pins 5 and 1 and a Vout between 4 and 1?

Almost. VGRD is the car ground or body, so Vout will be between 4 & 5.

I would think that the old valve could be operated manually, or freed up enough to be able to operate for a test. The motor drive is not very strong, and it is unlikely the valve will have seized up solid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, omerone said:

pins 2 and 3, is this the power supply to the egr motor? so 12V?

Yes. I am 99% sure it is a 12v motor, it certainly is on mine, and it is very unlikely there is another voltage in the ECU with enough current capability. Ideally, I would ramp up the voltage using a variable power supply, to see when it started to move, and if it moved smoothly open as the voltage went up. If you just put 12v on it, it will drive fully open (or shut, I seem to recall someone said these valves spring open and drive closed, but I may be mixing that up with another valve!) very quickly.

(Do not backfeed any voltages into the wiring, they will go back to the ECU, and might damage it. It is ok to measure voltages on the wiring, taking care to avoid short circuits, and ok to power the valve when it is disconnected from the wiring.)

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Peter,

thanks to your input I was able to make some measurements by myself. I,ve found the old valve, was still at the garage. So i measured the new and old valve in open and closed position with ignition on and engine off. For the new valve I've commanded it with Forscan ( works also with engine off, but only after deleting the DTCs ) and for the old one, as long it's somehow damaged and doesen't move, i've moved manually the fork from one end position to the other ( i've separated the electric part from the mechanical ). All the measurement i did with the connector plugged and using as back probe pins some sewing needles stolen to my wife...:)..worked perfectly.

Here the results:

New valve ( Pierburg )

VREF: 5,26V

VOUT valve closed: 2,79V ( 0% in Forscan )

VOUT valve open: 0,57V ( 70% in Forscan )

 

Old valve ( Valeo )

VREF: 5,42V

VOUT valve open: 12,3 V for some seconds than goes to 0 when DTCs are appearing and MIL is turned on

VOUT valve closed: 2,78V

 

I don't know how to interprete the data, but it looks at least that the ECU is sending the signals correctly and interpreting correctly if the EGR is stuck closed or open and storing correct DTCs for the 2 different problems. But how to explain the sticking closed new EGR? And the 70% open in Forscan related to the 0,57V? Should that voltage go to almost 0 to totaly open the valve?

 

I did also a couple of screenshots of Forscan while commanding the EGR valve from Forscan ( so first screen shot egr closed - second one open ) with engine running at idle

Egr closed.jpg

 

Egr open.jpg

 

Concerning the Throttle valve mentioned some posts ago, i've noticed that the EGRTV_FLOW is never changing and the EGR_TV is not changing a lot during normal city drive...is that ok?

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, omerone said:

using as back probe pins some sewing needles stolen to my wife...:)..worked perfectly.

Here the results:

New valve ( Pierburg )

VREF: 5,26V

VOUT valve closed: 2,79V ( 0% in Forscan )

VOUT valve open: 0,57V ( 70% in Forscan )

 

Old valve ( Valeo )

VREF: 5,42V

VOUT valve open: 12,3 V for some seconds than goes to 0 when DTCs are appearing and MIL is turned on

VOUT valve closed: 2,78V

I am impressed by the results from the stolen needleslaugh.png

Just be a bit careful to avoid unintended short circuits by insulating exposed joints etc. with tape or sleeves. I have destroyed many components by accidents while testing, but only cheap or repairable things (so far!).

The agreement of the two closed positions is interesting, it suggests the new valve is ok. I would not expect 0v when open, about 0.5v sounds sensible. It will be designed to not reach either end of the pot track, to allow for manufacturing tolerances, wear, etc.

The 12.3v sounds completely mad. Is it a typo for 1.23v, or, if real, it sounds like the pot in the old valve is damaged and reads open circuit, floating up to some arbitrary voltage.

I can not really make out what those PIDs mean, or what the difference between EGRVR & EGRVP are. I guess EGRVP is valve position, and EGR_PCT is the duty cycle, but VR? We could do with a working 1.6TDCI of similar type to compare.

But the "not learnt" indication is informative, it has refused to re-learn the new valve. Have you double checked all the service procedures for a relearn adaptions option? I know you said the egr adaptions has been reset, but is there something else needs to be done too, or just keep trying it.

The 70% could be a result of it not learning the new valve.

Since the valve forcing test can be done engine off, it would be possible to see if the new valve was fully opening it could be removed.

The results above suggest to me that the new valve may be ok, but there is some software glitch or difficulty that is preventing it from learning it. It is shame that one end of the old Valeo valve gave such nonsense readings, with a good match at the other end.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Peter,

yes it's really bad luck with old valve, but this also explains the reason why it was not working, something went wrong in the circuit and now as you say appears as a totally open circuit to the ECU.

The only thing to do would be to open the new valve and see if when commanded with Forscan to 70% it's really fully open or not, but I don't want to do that now because anyway the valve is new and I should have some warranty on it in case it will be replaced.

The EGRVR should actually be the EGR duty cycle in Forscan ( anyway I don't have idea what a EGR duty cycle is ) and the EGRVP the valve position.

It's clear that for some reason the new valve doesn't respond correctly to the basic settings in ECU. I stopped today at Ford and talked to the main guy in the garage ( I live in Graz, Austria ) and explained the issue and asked if we could try to make a software update of the car and he said better to not do that, could introduce other problems (????). But when I told him that I got a Pierburg EGR he was looking at me in a very strange way and he told me that they fit only original parts to the cars and original means Valeo.

The reset of the egr adaptions the garage did with their diagnostic system first and than I also did it with Forscan...there are basically no other instruments in Forscan to do that...I don't have idea if it's possible to this calibration manually with some other instruments.

I think with the measurements I at least can be roughly sure that the ECU is operating ok and try to ask to the garage that performed the valve substitution to get a Valeo valve that we could just plug without fitting to the engine and see what will happen. 

I'm really wondering how andystephenson solved the thing with same symptoms...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, omerone said:

I don't have idea what a EGR duty cycle is

The duty cycle is a measure of the voltage applied to the valve. The ECU will pulse the 12v supply on & off rapidly, typically 1000 times per second, and the ratio of on time to total cycle time is the duty. It is a simple and efficient way of applying a variable voltage to a motor or solenoid. So 50% duty would be about 6v on average. The motor only responds to the average value.

About the throttle valve, I would not expect it to be used much normally. I suspect it is for unusual situations where the Inlet pressure is higher than, or very similar to, the exhaust pressure. EGR flow relies on the exhaust being higher pressure, but, for instance during turbo ramp down, the exhaust may have lower pressure. Then the TV can reduce the pressure in the inlet manifold enough to get the desired EGR flow.

I have had a look at the .FSL file that Andy supplied. It is a bit different to your results, both the EGR & Throttle valve were Not Learnt in his case (apart from the LL_EGRV). So that looks to be the opposite of what you have! But it is still the same underlying problem of not learning the positions.

On 23/04/2016 at 2:46 PM, andystephenson said:

I've made a FORScan log showing all Pids relating to the EGR.

It would be helpful if Andy had any extra info. He was last on site on 6 Feb, so may still visit here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Forums


News


Membership