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Clutch Pedal Fails To Return Fully Until Car Has 'warmed Up'?


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#1 michaeljohngoff

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 08:39 PM

Hi Folks, I've recently bought a Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDI LX 115 2001.

 

I was hoping somebody could help me diagnose a fault i have with the clutch pedal which fails to return fully when the car is first started? after 20 minutes of driving the clutch pedal starts behaving better and selecting gears becomes easier. 

 

It doesn't seem to be losing hydraulic fluid and the longer i drive it the better it gets. Any help would be much appreciated as i'm currently fighting to shift smoothly.

 

Michael



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#2 FOCA

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 08:58 PM

The clutch shares its fluid with the Brake master cylinder resovior - keep an eye on the level and see if you are loosing fluid - its possible the CSC (concentric slave cylinder) is leaking and you may not see this because its inside the bell housing (part of the gearbox casing)

 

 

  Any air (at the CSC or elsewhere) entering the system may cause "loss of pedal"-  if you pump the clutch pedal a few times and it becomes easier to put in gear it could be it needs bled    the Master cylinder may be leaking too or, simply a leak in the line/ needs bled (the cheapest to fix) - if its the CSC the gearbox needs to come out - a big job/ labour intensive (expensive)  - a stronger or extra clutch pedal ruturn spring may help to keep it going a bit longer  



#3 michaeljohngoff

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:26 PM

Ive tried pumping the clutch pedal a few times but it doesnt make a difference. 15 minutes into my journey the clutch pedal has full movement but still feels limp to me and getting into first and second is especially difficult (possibly because i use the clutch more when initially pulling off than when shifting from third / fourth / fifth?). It's a real pain at traffic lights when you are contending to put the car in gear.

 

I'll check the reservoir level personally but im told by the previous owner that it isn't leaking (i'll verify this weekend). Would a problem with leaking mean i lose braking efficiency aswell though? as It ssems to brake positively enough.

 

I currently write with zero knowledge of master / slave cylinders and gear boxes but I am leaning (from what ive read) towards a faulty slave cylinder. I have a mechanic friend who plans to help me this weekend but any information on bleeding reservoir / checking slave cylinder would be greatly appreciated if only for reference when we do carry out the work.



#4 michaeljohngoff

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:32 PM

Coould there be multiple issues aswell I.e. Loss of gearbox oil?



#5 flying clutchman

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:47 PM

although the clutch and brake systems share a resevoir they are seperate in every other way. The resevoir is split internally, so losing fluid in the clutch will never affect the brakes. The problem is that air is getting into the system The reason it improves with use is because the floating valve fitted to the concentric slave self bleeds  as you use it. Trying to bleed it will be a waste of effort. It's very difficult to try and work out which cylinder is the culprit. The master cylinder is the much easier to change, as the gearbox needs to come out to do the slave.



#6 michaeljohngoff

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 04:04 PM

So should I change the master cylinder and then check performance. If there is no improvement then change the CSC?



#7 FOCA

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 06:03 PM

It all comes down to money-

- how much the car is worth/ how much you are prepared to spend on it/ do you intend to keep it for a while longer etc etc  

 

It could cost £400 on labour to remove/ replace the gearbox (nessesary if the slave cylinder needs replaced) - if you are doing this, because of the high cost of labour doing this, it is recommended that you replace the DMF, clutch as well (upto about £400)

 

Now you may be able to do the work yourself, know someone who could do it or get "mates rates" (eg, labour for £250 or less) and you could just replace the CSC (slave cylinder) 

 

After replacing the master cylinder, you may find its the CSC after all

 

Another option is just to put up with it as it is at least for a while



#8 michaeljohngoff

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:51 PM

I do plan to keep it for a few years yes. I also do like to get my hands dirty and acquire more knowledge regarding the mechanics one job at a time. Jobs i have done in the past on other cars include - oil sump change, New Rear shocker springs, exhaust system, Hand brake / rear drum / front disk brakes pads. The engine and transmission etc i havent got any working knowledge of though. I have a mechanic friend that will endeavour to help fix this problem and a couple of other niggles aswell.

 

I may just replace the slave cylinder for now depending on finances. A friend mentioned that there is a hose that connects the master cylinder to the slave cylinder, at least i think that's right (although im unsure of the exact steps). He plans to change this hose for a new one that also has a 'compensator' in the middle of it. We shall bleed the system this week perhaps and see what happens from there.

 

I plan to carry out all work myself though (with the aid of said friend) but i like to to be better prepared in my own mind going into the weekend.



#9 stooge75

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 05:12 PM

I do plan to keep it for a few years yes. I also do like to get my hands dirty and acquire more knowledge regarding the mechanics one job at a time. Jobs i have done in the past on other cars include - oil sump change, New Rear shocker springs, exhaust system, Hand brake / rear drum / front disk brakes pads. The engine and transmission etc i havent got any working knowledge of though. I have a mechanic friend that will endeavour to help fix this problem and a couple of other niggles aswell.

 

I may just replace the slave cylinder for now depending on finances. A friend mentioned that there is a hose that connects the master cylinder to the slave cylinder, at least i think that's right (although im unsure of the exact steps). He plans to change this hose for a new one that also has a 'compensator' in the middle of it. We shall bleed the system this week perhaps and see what happens from there.

 

I plan to carry out all work myself though (with the aid of said friend) but i like to to be better prepared in my own mind going into the weekend.

Mate,this is a recipe for disaster if you dont mind me saying. forget about hoses etc. you need to check your master cylinder(behind pedal-any signs of fluid?),& bleed the hydraulics it 1st.If you dont know how the system works how are you going to know whats wrong? Dont rely on mates.I learned that the expensive way years ago.(and when it ALL goes wrong,you cant blame him cause he's a mate,& is only trying to help you). Take the car to someone that knows about clutches & has changed a lot o em. You'll save doe in the long run



#10 michaeljohngoff

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 07:59 PM

I plan to learn the system as I enjoy the challenges of fixing / maintaining my own vehicle. We plan to inspect the system this weekend and if necessary be prepared to swap the master cylinder and hose. If necessary we shall attack the slave cylinder next weekend.

It Is indeed a recipe for disaster but I thrive on the satisfaction of diagnosing and fixing all mammer of things. I like to tinker and it cant hurt to gain knowledge of such systems. I hear that these things can ba complex in nature with many parts to contend with but despite my inexperience I am both capable and methodical (I hope).

#11 stooge75

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:44 PM

Kudos to ya for trying then. Its not a complex system really though. Can only be either a problem at pedal,at release-bearing/slave,or pressure plate. Hope its not your clutch tho as quite expensive and labour intensive,unless you have access to a ramp.

ive just read over your post agin. i have a feeling you have 2 probs there. 1.your clutch pedal and 2. bad transmission prob. just noticed its a 2001 mondeo yeah? whats the mileage? if the cars been driven like that for a while it would take its toll on the synchros especially 1st and 2nd. are they the worst gears to select ? 



#12 michaeljohngoff

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:53 PM

2001 ford mondeo estate, 177k. I would say that first is the worst followed by second then third etc etc.

#13 FOCA

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:28 PM

2001 ford mondeo estate, 177k. I would say that first is the worst followed by second then third etc etc.

The 2.0L 115 TDDIs estates are the best ones, runs on anything, estate practicality and room for 5 adults in comfort and their luggage, + the TDDI does not use the (rubbish) delphi injectors used in the TDCI

 

I have heard of them going to 300+k so yours is just nicely run in now :)

 

Just keep replacing the consmables (tyres, brakes, filters, EGR valves (or fit a plate!), DMFs (or upgrade that too) - and it keeps running!  

 

It can even be souped up untill it has more power than an ST-TDCI! (allegedly)  



#14 michaeljohngoff

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:08 PM

We have replaced the clutch master cylinder and bled the system and it seems to be okay for now! I'll see if it stays air free in the next 48 hours. Fingers crossed or were going to being tinkering with the gear box and centric slave cylinder.

Clutch pedal returns for now and I'll comment on gear shifting in the next 48hrs.

#15 stooge75

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 05:09 PM

good good. much was your master cylinder.if its ok for now,chances are it'll be ok tomorrow hopefully. someone deserved a bit of luck around here.glad its worked out for you.



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