Mondeo Mk3 2.0 TDCI 130BHP, Injector issues.. knowledge required

[Koolkuts1]

Hello all, 

 

Not an often poster but after some of your great knowledge. My mondys cut out the other day with no symptoms just suddenly started blowing smoke and making a horrible metal scraping sound. My first thought was the turbos gone.

AA plugged it in and said its injectors but couldnt tell which one he also said he checks none have lost their code and alls good so it looks like im in need of a new set of injectors.

Only symptoms was it was a little down on power in first and second but fine every other gear. Now its running like a bag of bolts anyway. 

So my questions are do the symptoms i have described (I'm aware theres not many) sound like injectors and also whats it like on 2.2d injectors? I know i would have to get a remap but ive had that planned anyway. Should i bother with 2.2s for a bit of power boost or just get the standards. 

My plan at the moments to get some from a scrappy with lower mileage as mines nearly 200k and have a well known garage that works on the mondeo taxis fit them. Would buy new but im looking at £300 to buy and fit one so a sets going to be right out of my price range.

I know this was a long one but my research isnt finding much. I appreciate any responses. Trying to keep her going for as long as possible im sure some of you will understand. 

EDIT: Thought ild just leave what AA reported. 

Patrol found the following fault code/s:System : Engine control 2 - 38X / EEC5-EDC Common RailP1000 - OBD system tests. Error Message : Operation not completed.We have arranged for a recovery of your vehicle.injection fault, injector failed

 

[nicam49]

Hi, P1000 isn't a fault code. It just means the system hasn't had time to reset (something like that) no way it points to an injector failure. Do yourself a favour, and buy a code reader from Tunnelrat electronics, you'll need either a Windows laptop with USB port, or they do one for Android devices  with bluetooth. They're only about £20 and invaluable for Ford car owners. It runs a software called Forscan, which is a free download for Windows and about £6 for Android. Just to explain that a lot of readers don't pick up Ford-specific fault codes, but these do. Can you describe the problem again? It's now running, is that right? But is noisy? Or what. Did the AA man check physically the turbo, ie he removed the inlet pipe and turned the blades to see if they were contacting the body or to see if there was any damage to them? Or had excessive play? 

[Koolkuts1]

AA just plugged in the code reader.. the engine worked fine for over 20 miles with no issues i turned off a roundabout and it started stuttering and kicking out alot of white smoke. There was a grinding sound what i thought might be a turbo bearing and then it cut off. The engine runs but poorly shaking back and forth and has no power 

 

[Koolkuts1]

Sorry for double post..

I have no engine lights but soon as you rev it or put any load on the engine it cuts out 

 

[nicam49]

OK, might be egr valve needs a clean. As a temporary measure , you could buy an egr blanking plate, that'd eliminate the egr from being the issue. I'm assuming/hoping that you can do stuff for yourself, or willing to, else you're at the mercy of all and sundry. 

[Koolkuts1]

2 hours ago, nicam49 said:

OK, might be egr valve needs a clean. As a temporary measure , you could buy an egr blanking plate, that'd eliminate the egr from being the issue. I'm assuming/hoping that you can do stuff for yourself, or willing to, else you're at the mercy of all and sundry. 

Appreciate your optimism im having egr off this week otherwise its booked in with the diesel specialist for a full once over. Having called a few mechanics they said its an odd issue but without blue smoke doesnt sound like the turbo and without black shouldnt be an injector. Seems a bit odd to not have any lights.

[nicam49]

White smoke to my mind means unburnt fuel due to an overfuelling injector or maybe low compression, but a recent post on a forum with a similar condition as yours was the egr. That clattering noise is also due to the egr trying to operate. Let us know how you get on! 

[TomsFocus]

I'd change your mechanics tbh.

White smoke can be all sorts...burning coolant, excess fuel, but in this case I'd suggest burning oil from the turbo exhaust seal.  Oil only burns blue if it goes through the engine first.  Black smoke is partly burnt fuel, so if you've got an injector that leaks so much that it can't burn, you'll get white from that too.

The fact you have no engine lights makes it sound like a mechanical failure that can't be detected by the PCM.  

[Koolkuts1]

7 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

I'd change your mechanics tbh.

White smoke can be all sorts...burning coolant, excess fuel, but in this case I'd suggest burning oil from the turbo exhaust seal.  Oil only burns blue if it goes through the engine first.  Black smoke is partly burnt fuel, so if you've got an injector that leaks so much that it can't burn, you'll get white from that too.

The fact you have no engine lights makes it sound like a mechanical failure that can't be detected by the PCM.  

I appreciate your reply, i forgot to mention but a previous owner has fitted the turbo with braided oil lines which appear fairly new so i wouldnt expect the turbo to have been starved off oil. The white smoke described only appeared when the car was driving and was not showing when running / reved (before it stalled). 

Tomorrow i am planning on checking the turbo turbine anyway and inspecting the EGR is there anything significant i can look for when inspecting the EGR that would describe the metallic noise. I may also add the engine releases a slight ticking sound when running that comes goes i heard that this is the sign of a faulty injector? 

Also my main question to all of this is if its a faulty turbo or injector wouldnt there have been more signs? The only sign i ever had was the fact it every now and then seem ever so slightly down on power but it wasnt even enough for my passengers to notice.

[TomsFocus]

Turbo's do wear out over time - I've blown 3 of them so far!    I'd also be wary of braided lines - are they definitely the correct internal diameter for example...

I'd suggest it's the exhaust side of the turbo you should be checking, along with the VNT vanes.  Not sure how easy it is to access on the Mondeo but one possibility is that the vanes got stuck closed and overboosted the turbo.  You should get a warning light and fault code appear if that was happening though so that's not a definite.

I'm not convinced on the EGR causing white smoke unless it was stuck wide open, again I'd expect a fault code if that had happened.  The EGR cooler can leak coolant into the system which could show as white smoke.  Have you checked oil and coolant levels btw, have either dropped at all?

Injectors do tick generally, it's not necessarily a sign of a fault, but the tick will get louder as they wear over time.

As for signs - sadly not, things often just fail without any warning at all.  People like to think they have 'peace of mind' of a yearly service but unless you disassemble and scrutinise every part, there's always the chance of things breaking out of the blue.

[Koolkuts1]

26 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Turbo's do wear out over time - I've blown 3 of them so far!    I'd also be wary of braided lines - are they definitely the correct internal diameter for example...

I'd suggest it's the exhaust side of the turbo you should be checking, along with the VNT vanes.  Not sure how easy it is to access on the Mondeo but one possibility is that the vanes got stuck closed and overboosted the turbo.  You should get a warning light and fault code appear if that was happening though so that's not a definite.

I'm not convinced on the EGR causing white smoke unless it was stuck wide open, again I'd expect a fault code if that had happened.  The EGR cooler can leak coolant into the system which could show as white smoke.  Have you checked oil and coolant levels btw, have either dropped at all?

Injectors do tick generally, it's not necessarily a sign of a fault, but the tick will get louder as they wear over time.

As for signs - sadly not, things often just fail without any warning at all.  People like to think they have 'peace of mind' of a yearly service but unless you disassemble and scrutinise every part, there's always the chance of things breaking out of the blue.

Exhaust side is a bit harder to get at but ill give it a go. Coolant and oil didnt drop an inch and both sat dead on the max line, would expect some fluctuation if it was oil burning my old car did that and could go through 5 litres in a week of heavy driving. Bare in mind that didnt put out anywhere near as much smoke as this though. 

The cars always been a bit black smokey when you boot it but its straight piped after the cat so its expected. 

Talking of the engine light it has never displayed, i wad doing something a few months back that required the EGR unplugging. I accidentally left it unplugged and the car ran rough but again no code only thing thats ever shown up is p1000 code.

 

[TomsFocus]

11 hours ago, Koolkuts1 said:

Exhaust side is a bit harder to get at but ill give it a go. Coolant and oil didnt drop an inch and both sat dead on the max line, would expect some fluctuation if it was oil burning my old car did that and could go through 5 litres in a week of heavy driving. Bare in mind that didnt put out anywhere near as much smoke as this though. 

The cars always been a bit black smokey when you boot it but its straight piped after the cat so its expected. 

Talking of the engine light it has never displayed, i wad doing something a few months back that required the EGR unplugging. I accidentally left it unplugged and the car ran rough but again no code only thing thats ever shown up is p1000 code.

 

P1000 isn't a fault code.  As Nicam says, it just means the code reader couldn't connect properly.  Forscan is the way to go when diagnosing Fords.  It'll pull all the hidden codes that don't trigger the EML as well.

No loss of oil or coolant is interesting.  Does suggest that it was excess fuel causing the smoke.  Is it remapped, judging by the other mods?  Just wondering if it's got a poor map on it.

[nicam49]

One quick way to eliminate the egr is to fit a blanking plate. If you intend to work on it over the weekend you've probably just got time to order one from eBay in time for delivery by the weekend. Making one from a can isn't suitable as the material will be too thin, and it'll burn through. 

[Koolkuts1]

I am looking into getting a proper scanner and have found a fault on another forum stating the exact same issue as mine except for my vehicle still runs at idle. On this thread most suggest EGR as the culprit. I know this guy had more issues after resulting in it not being the EGR but does give me a little hope and is a much better description of the fault in hand. 

https://talkford.com/community/topic/190053-mondeo-tdci-cut-out-and-white-smoke-rattle/

 

Towards the remap the cars never come with any paperwork but based on how well its looked after and the parts its had changed suggests to me that a remap is possible.. I wouldn't expect it to be a faulty one because most of the work previously done seems to be to quite a high standard so i would expect it to be done with a reputable company. I was informed that one of the previous owners loved the car and used to take it to and from coventry constantly. I have some scraps of paper suggesting a clutch replacement and thats about it. It was a cheap car so can't complain. 

[nicam49]

Shame that link didn't have a resolution! I've read a much more recent one than that where the fix was the egr. Oh well good luck, and if you do get a code reader, remember that codes aren't date stamped, so some will be historic... make a note of them, then clear the codes and see which ones return. 

[Koolkuts1]

Back from working on it, The turbo is fine both sides and no oil inside.. EGR was not the cause of the issue had it off today and freed up the plunger but now it won't even start. Wouldn't start before i touched the EGR btw. Little lost now. Instead of starting it sounds like it wants to but cuts out when keys let go of, Kicking puffs of black smoke out of the exhaust.

Any suggestions?

[TomsFocus]

Has it run at all since it cut out?  I'm now wondering if the timing slipped. 

Black smoke is a good sign...at least we know fuel is getting through.

[Koolkuts1]

44 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Has it run at all since it cut out?  I'm now wondering if the timing slipped. 

Black smoke is a good sign...at least we know fuel is getting through.

That was my concerning thought but it definately ran for a good 20 mintues after loosing all power while i waited for recovery and started up again when the AA came to diagnose it so surely timing is okay? I'm a bit concerned of maybe a huge vacumm leak or boost leak however these are normally cheap fixes when you find them. 

After turning it over theres a very faint burning smell from the engine bay and definately a lot of clicking from injector 4

EDIT: 

I have found the exact print out of what AA reported if it helps..

 

Patrol found the following fault code/s:System : Engine control 2 - 38X / EEC5-EDC Common RailP1000 - OBD system tests. Error Message : Operation not completed.We have arranged for a recovery of your vehicle.injection fault, injector failed, all injector codes still present, recovery arranged. unable to load, not enough time for Self recovery. Engine oil Level Ok. Coolant Level Ok.

[TomsFocus]

Ah yeah, if it was running then the timing should be ok...or at least not far enough out to stop it starting now.  The AA report doesn't give us much, did he say why he was so sure it was an injector fault?

Did you have to open any fuel lines today btw?  And if so, did you manually prime the system again afterwards?

[Koolkuts1]

Didn't touch fuel lines, thinking maybe time to have a look at the fuel filter. Never manuallly primed a fuel system so will be something new to learn. AA spent about 5 mintues looking at the car plugged it in, reset codes, started it again and said its injectors but he can't tell me which one. I tried to get more information from him but he couldn't tell me anything such as why i would hear a metallic noise if the injectors failed. 

I tried a quick DIY blank of the EGR just incase that was still the issue but i can't see it being as it moved free when i put it back on. Im buying a blanking kit tonight so will fit it at the weekend just to make sure its not at fault, now or in the future. 

I will be honest i've done about 10k since i bought it and done very little service to it because unfortunately moneys been really tight. Only service its had is a simota air filter a few days after i bought it. Is there any chance it could be the fuel pump? Reading low rail pressure makes me suspect to something simmilar.

[TomsFocus]

I thought the same thing over dinner...HP pump could have failed which would explain the scraping noise.  You'll need to read the fuel pressure on live diags to test that. 

If you do change the fuel filter, check inside it for metal filings.  If there are any filings, it's possible they've got into the injectors and damaged them as well.  

 

[Koolkuts1]

New plans to change the filter and check for filings then.. If it is true i won't even bother putting a new filter in and get it scrapped. A new pump and injectors far exceeds the cars worth and how much i'm willing to spend on it. Surely if the pump went though it wouldn't have started again with no smoke after the cut out?

[TomsFocus]

13 hours ago, Koolkuts1 said:

New plans to change the filter and check for filings then.. If it is true i won't even bother putting a new filter in and get it scrapped. A new pump and injectors far exceeds the cars worth and how much i'm willing to spend on it. Surely if the pump went though it wouldn't have started again with no smoke after the cut out?

It's unlikely that the pump would have completely & catastrophically failed, more likely worn far enough not to maintain enough fuel pressure any more.  That would also tally with your previously noted lack of power intermittently.  If that's the case, I can't explain the smoke, perhaps an injector got stuck wide open but has since closed again.

This is all still speculation at the moment though.  It's difficult to suggest much without having any fault codes or live diags.  Can't even do a leak off test until you can at least get it idling.

[Koolkuts1]

Been suggested to use easy start to get it to a nearby garage however they have suggested it will more then likely be the pump causing issues.. At this point ready to send it to the scrapyard as the cost to repair is starting to add up way higher then its worth, will be a shame to see it go though did me well for over 10k miles, in just a year.

During this latest lockdown i have not been able to drive as much meaning it spent alot of time just sitting on the drive, only started the power loss when i stopped driving it as much which could be a coincidence. 

The smoke only appeared when i pressed harder on the accelerator to try and make up for the loss on power so probably me getting it stuck.

 

Is it worth replacing the fuel filter before scrapping it and seeing if i can get it back to running rough as its possible that its clogged?

[TomsFocus]

6 minutes ago, Koolkuts1 said:

Is it worth replacing the fuel filter before scrapping it and seeing if i can get it back to running rough as its possible that its clogged?

You haven't really got anything to lose by trying a filter change.  For the sake of a tenner I'd say it's worth it...