MK2 2006 TDCI 1.8 (88K)- Help / Suggestions please

[benni8]

Hi All, 

I have the above car and it has had a slight issue for well over 18 months that seems to be getting more frequent and I would like your help if possible to point me in the potential right direction.

About 18 months ago, I noticed that when driving in any gear, the car would hesitate for a split second. I could potentially describe it as a loss of power for literally a split second and it goes back to normal.. No lights no loss of power - no other symptoms or warnings or performance issues. Hesitate is the best word I can find to be honest - it almost feels like you are disconnected from the car for a split second.

Sometimes it would go weeks without doing it, and sometimes it would happen twice a week.

Because the car is now 16 years old and still on the original clutch... I put it down to the clutch or associated parts on the way out... so the thinking has always been when it gets worse then ill get it changed no problem.

Over the past few weeks, that hesitation has started to occur more fequently - so I am now on the verge of booking it in for a new clutch and fly wheel.

My question is....  My biggest 'fear' is paying for a new clutch and flywheel and that not being the issue especially with the bills and prices as they are at the moment.

I do have forscan - so do you think it would be wise to clear the logs and then run for a few days to see if it picks up another issue such as injectors for example?  

Or is this a general symptom of a failing flywheel/clutch and I am overthinking this?

Thank you in advance

[dezwez]

🙂run the  forscan first 

[isetta]

The way you describe it doesn’t really sound like clutch problem. When the engine is idling in neutral is there a general mechanical rattling / clanking coming from the clutch . That is the usual indication that the dual mass flywheel is very worn

[benni8]

32 minutes ago, isetta said:

The way you describe it doesn’t really sound like clutch problem. When the engine is idling in neutral is there a general mechanical rattling / clanking coming from the clutch . That is the usual indication that the dual mass flywheel is very worn

I am generally attentive when it comes to monitoring my car and I cant say that there is any particular addtional noises or rattling. Apart from the random intermittant 1/4 of second hesitation there is nothing else affected.

I have another car so this is only a run around to be honest for the dog and taking stuff to the tip stuff like that - hence the reason I have not addressed it in any sort of urgency. But as you appreciate, I would rather not being spending thousands on new injectors and clutch kit and fly wheel for a car that isnt a priority - If that makes sense.

I will run Forscan clear the logs... run for a few days and see what pops up.

Was convinced it was a flywheel issue (judder) all along untill it came to pay for one

[Janzup]

Sounds like usual EGR problems on the 1.8 tdci. The EGR mechanism gets gunked with oil + soot sludge and the EGR valve starts sticking when moving, and therefor choking the engine at times. Has the EGR been blanked out or replaced before? At which rpm range the hesitation occurs? Based on what you are telling I am almost certain that the problem is that and the solution is much cheaper than DMF or injectors. Had similar problems a while ago that were solved by blanking. You can monitor EGRVR values on forscan in oscilloscope view and check the graph at the time when hesitation occurs to see if they are correlated, nevertheless I would definitely at least try blanking the EGR temporarily to see if it helps.

[benni8]

1 hour ago, Janzup said:

Sounds like usual EGR problems on the 1.8 tdci. The EGR mechanism gets gunked with oil + soot sludge and the EGR valve starts sticking when moving, and therefor choking the engine at times. Has the EGR been blanked out or replaced before? At which rpm range the hesitation occurs? Based on what you are telling I am almost certain that the problem is that and the solution is much cheaper than DMF or injectors. Had similar problems a while ago that were solved by blanking. You can monitor EGRVR values on forscan in oscilloscope view and check the graph at the time when hesitation occurs to see if they are correlated, nevertheless I would definitely at least try blanking the EGR temporarily to see if it helps.

Hi, Thanks for replying.. no the EGR is standard not not blanked. I cant say I have noticed where in the RPM range it happens to be honest as its so intermittent.

Is there a link to a "how to guide" or similar that will enable me to see the correct process and blank the EGR off please?

[benni8]

Hi All, 

I have just ran Forscan and got the attached results.

My questions is - should I be able to see more modules than those 5?

I have one of these - https://tunnelrat-electronics.fwscart.com/USB_Modified_with_switch_ELM327/p4541936_17045457.aspx

 

[Janzup]

You need to buy EGR blanking plate for 1.8 tdci to insert between the EGR cooler pipe and the intake that looks like the one on the picture below. In the picture below are also the gaskets that come on each side of the plate to prevent exhaust gas/intake air leakage which is very important.  

Here is a video on how to do it on Mondeo, which has a bit more space to work with. In case of focus you will need to remove a bolt and some clamps on the plastic that is mounted around the wipers to get a better access. I would also highly recommend using some high temperature silicone around the blanking plate to prevent any possible leakage. 

 

 

Regarding the forscan readout, you only scanned for fault codes, which there ar none. I was referring to observing the EGRVR values in real time which looks like the picture below (only one line on the picutre below is EGRVR value)

:

 

In order to see that you select the "read PID data one the left" ( the wavy graph), double click on one of the empty squares, search for EGRVR value, click on it the click the arrow that point to the left to add it to the list. After that you click the play button in bottom left corner of the forscan window, after that you will see ta EGRVT value displaying with number, in order to see the graph you select the "oscilloscope" tab on the top left of the forscan window.

 

 

[benni8]

1 minute ago, Janzup said:

You need to buy EGR blanking plate for 1.8 tdci to insert between the EGR cooler pipe and the intake that looks like the one on the picture below. In the picture below are also the gaskets that come on each side of the plate to prevent exhaust gas/intake air leakage which is very important.  

Here is a video on how to do it on Mondeo, which has a bit more space to work with. In case of focus you will need to remove a bolt and some clamps on the plastic that is mounted around the wipers to get a better access. I would also highly recommend using some high temperature silicone around the blanking plate to prevent any possible leakage. 

 

 

Regarding the forscan readout, you only scanned for fault codes, which there ar none. I was referring to observing the EGRVR values in real time which looks like the picture below (only one line on the picutre below is EGRVR value)

:

 

In order to see that you select the "read PID data one the left" ( the wavy graph), double click on one of the empty squares, search for EGRVR value, click on it the click the arrow that point to the left to add it to the list. After that you click the play button in bottom left corner of the forscan window, after that you will see ta EGRVT value displaying with number, in order to see the graph you select the "oscilloscope" tab on the top left of the forscan window.

 

 

The reading of the ForScan codes was in relation to the original repsonse from @dezwez

Thanks for the EGR guidance I will have a look into that

 

[mjt]

30 minutes ago, benni8 said:

My questions is - should I be able to see more modules than those 5?

I have one of these - https://tunnelrat-electronics.fwscart.com/USB_Modified_with_switch_ELM327/p4541936_17045457.aspx

My 2010 Mk2.5 has more modules than you've shown but as yours is an older Mk2 some of these may not be present and I don't know which they might be. The additional modules on mine are :

SRM - Speech Recognition Module

RCM - Restraint Control Module

ACM - Audio Control Module, and

GEM - Generic Electronic Module

I'd have thought at least some of these should be present, e.g. RCM and GEM. Did Forscan prompt you to switch between the HS and MS CAN buses? I think these are all probably on the MS bus. One of the experts, @TomsFocus, @unofixor @ianttwould know, hopefully they'll be along soon.

[unofix]

Hi @benni8 yes you should have a lot more modules than what you have shown. It looks like it's the MS canbus modules which are missing.

When you next connect up to your car with FORScan make sure that the lead is set to HS. Then FORScan will come up with the message saying it has found your car (VIN number) from a previous time, and do you want to load that profile? Answer No.

This will force FORScan to do a full search of modules. At some point it will ask yo to change the switch on the connecting lead to MS and the search for new modules will continue for a minute or two.

 

[benni8]

The annoying thing is I cant tell which is which but im sure a simple process of elimation will help!

[isetta]

On my code reader once I worked out which switch position was which I scratched H and M next to those switch positions for future reference 

[benni8]

I think my aim in reference to the issue being a potential EGR problem is to have the EGR cleaned. I could potentially do it myself but im moving house and training with work etc.. so might ring around on Monday for some prices.

I do however know someone locally who does engine carbon cleans - Maybe give that a try?

Or Spray the Wynns cleaner in?

[unofix]

38 minutes ago, benni8 said:

The annoying thing is I cant tell which is which but im sure a simple process of elimation will help!

If you have the unit from TunnelRat then the HS is with the switch down (away from the side with the label) and the MS is with the switch up (towards the side with the label).

[benni8]

Tadddaaaaaaaa

 

[Janzup]

1 hour ago, benni8 said:

I think my aim in reference to the issue being a potential EGR problem is to have the EGR cleaned. I could potentially do it myself but im moving house and training with work etc.. so might ring around on Monday for some prices.

I do however know someone locally who does engine carbon cleans - Maybe give that a try?

Or Spray the Wynns cleaner in?

 For your information in order to properly clean the EGR, the whole intake with its integrated EGR has to be removed since otherwise all the gunk that will be removed by any type of cleaning without removal can get into the cylinders and damage them or maybe even fly through the cylinders to the turbo and damage it or catalyst after the turbo... Below is a picture of my Intake right next to the EGR that shows how it looked before blanking. The 1.8 tdci intake is very hard to remove and usually requires also partially removing the exhaust manifold and the turbo all that while working in a very tight space between the engine block and the firewall and can get very time intensive= expensive. All the carbon cleaners are also not the best idea in my opinion since the ccarbon chunks have to go somewhere and there is only one way which is innto the combustion chamber, also EGR valve is right between the EGR pipe and the intake pipe so it is hard for any kind of cleaner dosed only through intake pipe to properly clean it. The best way to identify if all this trouble of cleaning EGR is worth it for you is to blank it which costs few pounds and max 1h of work only to confirm the problem is really caused by EGR and then proceed with further EGR removal and proper cleaning if you want to avoid the blank.

[benni8]

Just been quoted £274.14 with a years guarantee on a newly fitted EGR valve  - backup option I guess

[unofix]

You just need to sit back and wait for a few days/weeks now and keep checking with FORScan to see if any DTC's get logged.

[Janzup]

11 hours ago, benni8 said:

Just been quoted £274.14 with a years guarantee on a newly fitted EGR valve  - backup option I guess

That's a good price if the part is of good enough quality. Just be ware the part that gets gunked up (intake with integrated EGR) is the part that looks like the one on the picture below

 

But in order for EGR to operate you also need the electric motor that opens and closes it. This part can also sometimes go bad and cause same symptoms. Below is a picture of EGR with this electric motor mounted on top. So if you decide to replace it be sure they replace both parts.

Example of the electric motor being bad:

 

11 hours ago, unofix said:

You just need to sit back and wait for a few days/weeks now and keep checking with FORScan to see if any DTC's get logged.

In the case of EGR fault codes, the PCM tolerances on the 1.8 tdci are extremely loose, which is what also allows it to be one of the only engines to have EGR blanked without being mapped out in PCM and not showing any fault codes. Also the car can be choking very hard due to EGR (which is very stressful for the flywheel springs) without any codes showing up. That was my experience. 

[benni8]

4 hours ago, Janzup said:

That's a good price if the part is of good enough quality. Just be ware the part that gets gunked up (intake with integrated EGR) is the part that looks like the one on the picture below

 

But in order for EGR to operate you also need the electric motor that opens and closes it. This part can also sometimes go bad and cause same symptoms. Below is a picture of EGR with this electric motor mounted on top. So if you decide to replace it be sure they replace both parts.

Example of the electric motor being bad:

 

In the case of EGR fault codes, the PCM tolerances on the 1.8 tdci are extremely loose, which is what also allows it to be one of the only engines to have EGR blanked without being mapped out in PCM and not showing any fault codes. Also the car can be choking very hard due to EGR (which is very stressful for the flywheel springs) without any codes showing up. That was my experience. 

In regards to blanking the EGR.. How do I stand on MOTs? i.e. will it fail a test on emissions or similar?

[Janzup]

I live in Slovenia (EU), we have adopted european legislation and in current state we do not monitor NOx emissions on MOT. EGR reduces NOx at rpms below 2500 rpm. You would need to ask other forum members from UK that have blanked 1.8 tdcis how it goes on MOT, there is a lot of them on this forum.

[TomsFocus]

Diesels only have a smoke test for UK MOT so it won't fail that.

However, any visible tampering of the EGR system has been an MOT fail since 2018.

[benni8]

17 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

Diesels only have a smoke test for UK MOT so it won't fail that.

However, any visible tampering of the EGR system has been an MOT fail since 2018.

Morning Tom, 

So what your saying is I am ok in regards to smoke test, but if they look under the bonnet and see the blaking plate it fails?

Seems like a big risk no?

[TomsFocus]

1 minute ago, benni8 said:

...but if they look under the bonnet and see the blaking plate it fails?

Seems like a big risk no?

I can't remember how easily visible the blank plate is the 1.8 TDCI.  If it's easily visible then big risk.  If it's hidden away then little to no risk.  

I wouldn't fit a blanking plate nowadays myself, but that's as much for environmental reasons as legal/MOT/insurance reasons.  Ultimately the decision is yours, I'm sure many are still blanked nowadays.