Engine question Please

[AUDIdoTHAT]

Hi, 

I have a question please from somebody mechanically minded to get an opinion on what you think... Below is whats happened, and where im at today with it.

i have a 2013 1.0 zetec s, 51,000 miles FSH.

Just recently bought it from an auction CAT U - Unrecorded.  Just a damaged front bumper cracked. The car is immaculate. BUT........

It turned up with a coolant pipe split,  I dont know how bad it had effected the engine, It barely started when the car was delivered,

I changed the pipe, refilled with coolant, but it must have a head gasket or cylinder issue etc, because once the pipe was fixed water was getting into all 3 cylinders. 

and then not starting at all

Fords confirmed evidence of coolant in the cylinders, said it needed a new engine. 

So... Where im at now......

Today i drained out all the coolant,  Put a new battery on it as it was knackered,  And reluctantly the car started, Very lazily and juddery  at 1st,

On the 2nd and 3rd time of starting it was a bit better, I only let it run for 30 seconds to 1 min so it didn't over heat, But it at least starts and idles ok.

If i was to refill with coolant, it would probably get into places it shouldn't again.

My question is,  Does this sound like just a head gasket or cylinder issue,  Can it still be totally knackered even tho it runs now ?

How can somebody tell at this point what is the problem,  because if my options are a new engine, or repair mine, I dont want to spent loads of money of somebody finding out whats wrong with mine, only to then be told its knackered, As that money could of gone towards an engine. I just wondered because it runs does this now appear fixable ?

and how can i tell.  Below is a video of it running today. Any advice would be appreciated on my next step to take.

 

 

[unofix]

In short, yes you need a new engine. There are at least a couple of hundred threads on here regarding failed 1.0 Ecoboost engines.

A 2013 model would have needed the wet timing belt replaced even if the de-gas pipes hadn't failed. To do any work on the engine no matter how minor is just throwing money away.

Brand new 1.0 Ecoboost engines start from £2050.99

https://pumaspeed.co.uk/product-Brand-New-Ford-Service-10-EcoBoost-Engine_18898.jsp

[AUDIdoTHAT]

1 minute ago, unofix said:

In short, yes you need a new engine. There are at least a couple of hundred threads on here regarding failed 1.0 Ecoboost engines.

A 2013 model would have needed the wet timing belt replaced even if the de-gas pipes hadn't failed. To do any work on the engine no matter how minor is just throwing money away.

Brand new 1.0 Ecoboost engines start from £2050.99

https://pumaspeed.co.uk/product-Brand-New-Ford-Service-10-EcoBoost-Engine_18898.jsp

hi mate, thanks for the reply.  

So its not possible that its only as head gasket or cylinder issue ?

which would be much cheaper than a complete new engine fitted ?

i would do the belts etc anyway.

[unofix]

Don't just take my word for it, there will be others along to confirm what I'm saying.

The engine is dead, scrap, knackered and even Henry Ford himself couldn't save it.

The year 2013 also means it is 10 years old and regardless of mileage the wet timing belt would have to be replaced. This costs between £1400 and £1800 at a Ford main dealer especially in the Essex area. There are a couple of independent specialist garages in the North West of England who  replace the wet belt for about £900 but that's about as cheap as it gets.

[AUDIdoTHAT]

5 minutes ago, unofix said:

Don't just take my word for it, there will be others along to confirm what I'm saying.

The engine is dead, scrap, knackered and even Henry Ford himself couldn't save it.

The year 2013 also means it is 10 years old and regardless of mileage the wet timing belt would have to be replaced. This costs between £1400 and £1800 at a Ford main dealer especially in the Essex area. There are a couple of independent specialist garages in the North West of England who  replace the wet belt for about £900 but that's about as cheap as it gets.

Hi mate, it not that i doubt you, Im just not mechanically minded AT ALL, never have been, and im trying to be as sure as i can be before doing what needs to be done , so just double checking.

[unofix]

That's no problem. I can understand the need for you to check and try and limit the cost.

The sad fact is the 1.0 is well known as the Ecoboom for good reason. I suspect the damaged front bumper and the car being sold as 'U' Unrecorded was in fact a bit of a red herring.

Insurance companies don't payout for failed engines, but if someone was to have a bump big enough for the insurance company to payout. Then would they know that the engine was already scrap ?

If you can return it and get your money back I would do.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

Long time since I used to hang around the auctions but as I recall the "warranty" lasted only a few hours and only extended to things which were not disclosed in the description. Consumer rights legislation generally doesn't apply, so chances of return are probably unlikely but may be worth checking the Ts & Cs of the auction you purchased from.

If keeping the car the new engine option really does sound the best way to go, wet belt replacement, new oil pump, head gasket and other damage which has probably resulted from the engine being overcooked would soon exceed that.

 

[AUDIdoTHAT]

8 minutes ago, unofix said:

That's no problem. I can understand the need for you to check and try and limit the cost.

The sad fact is the 1.0 is well known as the Ecoboom for good reason. I suspect the damaged front bumper and the car being sold as 'U' Unrecorded was in fact a bit of a red herring.

Insurance companies don't payout for failed engines, but if someone was to have a bump big enough for the insurance company to payout. Then would they know that the engine was already scrap ?

If you can return it and get your money back I would do.

No possibility of returning it, the company in question says it was listed as Runs and drives, They showed the rev counter working, Which to them means it runs and drives, The fact they didnt liftt the bonnet up and see the pipe spurting out water/coolant/steam when the engine was running, they wouold have seen the issue immidiately, and if they listed it with this pipe split, People could have made their own minds up, knowing the issues these engines can have, and maybe the selling price would have been cheaper, because it may of been more of a gamble to somebody, BUT, i think they purposely didnt show the engine running to maximise the selling price, which in turn maximises their fees, of which i paid £800 to the actual auction place.  Their inspection of it running and driving to me isnt worth the paper its written on, they didnt notice an IN YOUR FACE pipe split,  That i noticed the second they started it when they delivered it to me, But like all big companies nowdays, Its hard to get anywhere with them,  which is where im findign myself with this particular well known company. To show a rev counter is working dosnt mean it will be running and driving in 5 mins time when it heats up. 

[dezwez]

totally agree try to get your money back

[unofix]

It doesn't sound very good for you. 🙁

I also notice it has an ABS light on 🙄 something else that will need sorted.

[AUDIdoTHAT]

2 minutes ago, dezwez said:

totally agree try to get your money back

already tried, and i got the response about the rev counter working, and their run and drive policy.

Just because it might move within 30 seconds of moving it, dosnt address the fact the engines knackered and if you continue to drive it pretty soon your not going anywhere, But they dont recognise this fact. And the fact they say its peoples responsibility to check, This company dosnt let you on their premises to check the cars anyway. 

[AUDIdoTHAT]

1 minute ago, unofix said:

It doesn't sound very good for you. 🙁

I also notice it has an ABS light on 🙄 something else that will need sorted.

strangely that light has never been on at my end, still now have never seen it lol, maybe i will at some point but as of yet no light.

[AUDIdoTHAT]

I did however find some info today, I tried to reach the owner who was on the logbook before i bought it, He may of Part ex the car in at a dealer,  then the dealer put it in the auction. Im guessing.. but.. The lastt owner is ex directory so i couldnt reach them by phone, But today , after i fitted the new batttery, the radio started working, and it listed a mobile number of a phone that had been connected to it, I tried the Number once to see if i was lucky enough to reach the lastt owner, and get some info , if it was knackered before the auction, and see what they said, maybe ill try again tomorrow. see if its somebody nice or not lol

[AUDIdoTHAT]

17 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Long time since I used to hang around the auctions but as I recall the "warranty" lasted only a few hours and only extended to things which were not disclosed in the description. Consumer rights legislation generally doesn't apply, so chances of return are probably unlikely but may be worth checking the Ts & Cs of the auction you purchased from.

If keeping the car the new engine option really does sound the best way to go, wet belt replacement, new oil pump, head gasket and other damage which has probably resulted from the engine being overcooked would soon exceed that.

 

they didnt disclose the obvious split pipe on any of their write up, although they couldn't wait to list all the goods points like FSH , Low Mileage etc etc.

[froggy8]

so sorry to hear about this 😞 

i bought a vauxhall insignia last april, checked it all over, oil was full, water was full. no mayo or anything.

took it for a test drive and all was good so bought it till i got home and noticed the coolant was low so topped it up till next day and coolant fell below minimum mark.

cut a long story short, the block was either cracked or headgasket because coolant was going into one of the cylinder and out the exhaust. i was so gutted! 😞 

 

 

[AUDIdoTHAT]

The company i got it from dont seem to want anything to do with helping me out. I have sent them another email asking them to at the very least refund my fees of £800,   this isn't really costing them anything as i paid this to them to begin with, Although they probably wont be forth coming, But i await a reply, If they are able to refund my fees then at least I'm half way to an engine. I Will update the min i have a reply from them. (If i get a reply that is)  🤞

[TomsFocus]

That's the luck of an auction unfortunately.  I would be very surprised if you get anything back.

I started going to a well known auction centre in Essex around 2018.  Never did bid on anything in the end as it all felt like too much of a gamble.  Rather take my chances on eBay!

[Eric Bloodaxe]

23 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

started going to a well known auction centre in Essex around 2018.  Never did bid on anything in the end as it all felt like too much of a gamble. 

Lol, I started going to a well known auction centre in West Yorkshire about 50 years before that. Never bought anything either, but learned a heck of a lot!

[AUDIdoTHAT]

It is the luck of the draw i spose, BUT...  you try to be as thorough as you can be,

I checked all the mileage out before hand on previous MOT's to make sure it was legit,

Checked it out with a HPI check for previous damage, and all checked out.

It didn't have high miles, and had pretty much FSH. 

Only exterior damage was a cracked bumper. £200 replacement at best. 

All in all it looked really tidy and looked after over the course of its life.

It all appeared to be ok for what i could personally check.

The Auction company didn't disclose that very important information imo, They say they inspected it, But failed to notice this when it was so obviously evident had somebody looked.  This either means they didn't look, Or did look but hid the problem.  Had this been highlight we wouldnt have bid on it knowing the possible issues.

Just my luck i guess !

[rd457]

Based upon what you've said I feel that you have a reasonable case to get a lawyer to pursue them for misrepresentation. It does not surprise me that they are being uncooperative when contacted directly. Sometimes a letter from a lawyer can make a big difference.

Quoting a law firm that deals with cases like this that I found through google:

Quote

When you buy from an auction you are entering into a contract with the owner of the goods not the auctioneer albeit you are relying upon the representations of the auction house. This means that if there is a problem with the vehicle you may be able to take it up with the owner and potentially also the auctioneer if they have misrepresented the vehicle.

The auction house claims to have inspected it and only reported "primary damage" as being to the "front end", showing pictures of cracks on the front bumper, showed that the engine was successfully rotating, described its "run condition" as "runs and drives" and estimate its value at £6475, yet there's a very obvious coolant leak and severe engine damage that must have resulted from it that effectively makes it unusable without a new engine or at least major engine repair, which you'd expect them to have noticed yet they did not mention at all. This feels like misrepresentation to me.

They did list it as a category U write off, but this category is often just for vehicles where the driver was uninsured, only third-party insured, or where the vehicle was stolen and later recovered, so not something that would necessarily put you off purchasing when otherwise represented as above.

The fact that you "accepted it" upon delivery does not necessarily matter since you were not necessarily in a suitable position to even notice the problem at that point never mind have sufficient time to reflect upon it and consider what to do. Such acceptance does not in my opinion necessarily prevent a successful misrepresentation claim.

There is the complication that as already pointed out these engines are renown for failing due to wetbelt problems (so not a wise choice for an auction purchase especially since it's probably not something that an auction house inspection could tell if it was suffering from, not that you'd necessarily have known about the "ecoboom" problem of course). The auction house might try deflect from the overheating damage by suggesting that purchasing a used "ecoboom" engine is always a gamble, but perhaps a good lawyer could work around this.

Regarding the ABS light that you said is not currently showing up but was in the auction house's photos (?), perhaps they cleared the codes before shipping it to you to help hide problems? The vehicle's diagnostic data should show when they were last cleared. If they they cleared them before selling it to you then this raises the question of why they would do that other than to hide problems, and this may help your case.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.

[TomsFocus]

12 hours ago, AUDIdoTHAT said:

It is the luck of the draw i spose, BUT...  you try to be as thorough as you can be,

I checked all the mileage out before hand on previous MOT's to make sure it was legit,

Checked it out with a HPI check for previous damage, and all checked out.

It didn't have high miles, and had pretty much FSH. 

Only exterior damage was a cracked bumper. £200 replacement at best. 

I don't know why people are still so interested by mileage of older cars nowadays.  I currently own two cars, one on 40k, the other on 113k.  You'd never know which was which without looking at the odometer.  One of them was a cat N write off 6 years ago, again you'd never know without a HPI check.

Yet having more than 100k miles and a cat N status makes that one virtually worthless, despite having been totally reliable throughout my ownership!

 

I'll also add that low mileage compared to age is the worst thing for a 1.0 EcoBoost.  Means either a lot of short, cold journeys.  Or very infrequent use.  Both bad news for oil degradation leading to wet-belt damage.

 

I'm also a bit confused by the Category U on the auction.  That's much worse to a prospective buyer than a cat N which is specifically detailed as safe to drive, just uneconomical to repair.  Cat U is a complete unknown.  So the car may not be safe, but passes a HPI check...  Also showing how pointless HPI checks are!

[AUDIdoTHAT]

20 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

I'm also a bit confused by the Category U on the auction.  That's much worse to a prospective buyer than a cat N which is specifically detailed as safe to drive, just uneconomical to repair.  Cat U is a complete unknown.  So the car may not be safe, but passes a HPI check...  Also showing how pointless HPI checks are!

U doesn't necessarily mean damaged and smashed to bits, it just means unrecorded from what i understand, 

A car could go in a salvage auction as cat U if it's ex fleet, with a knackered engine for example. They can't sell it so they dispose of it as salvage,

Or It also could be that a vehicle was stolen, the insurance company paid out to the owner after which the vehicle is subsequently recovered after pay out. 

Or cars that only had 3rd party insurance , and no pay out was made and no write off. 

I have the new logbook for mine, and like a cat N or S etc, it would usually show on the logbook front page, Mine dosnt show anything. Which i thought would be better when i eventually sold it.

I'm no expert in cat U's etc, but theres multiple reasons it can be in an auction other than been smashed to bits and hidden.

I had a cat C truck for 10 years and it never gave me an issue, i bought it for £4000 and 10 years later its just been shipped to Ukraine for the war aid of something. It sold for £5200 with 80,000 miles, I personally did 2000 miles a year for the last 10 years. So it was a good investment really which didn't lose me any money in 10 years.

[AUDIdoTHAT]

10 hours ago, rd457 said:

Based upon what you've said I feel that you have a reasonable case to get a lawyer to pursue them for misrepresentation. It does not surprise me that they are being uncooperative when contacted directly. Sometimes a letter from a lawyer can make a big difference.

Quoting a law firm that deals with cases like this that I found through google:

The auction house claims to have inspected it and only reported "primary damage" as being to the "front end", showing pictures of cracks on the front bumper, showed that the engine was successfully rotating, described its "run condition" as "runs and drives" and estimate its value at £6475, yet there's a very obvious coolant leak and severe engine damage that must have resulted from it that effectively makes it unusable without a new engine or at least major engine repair, which you'd expect them to have noticed yet they did not mention at all. This feels like misrepresentation to me.

They did list it as a category U write off, but this category is often just for vehicles where the driver was uninsured, only third-party insured, or where the vehicle was stolen and later recovered, so not something that would necessarily put you off purchasing when otherwise represented as above.

The fact that you "accepted it" upon delivery does not necessarily matter since you were not necessarily in a suitable position to even notice the problem at that point never mind have sufficient time to reflect upon it and consider what to do. Such acceptance does not in my opinion necessarily prevent a successful misrepresentation claim.

There is the complication that as already pointed out these engines are renown for failing due to wetbelt problems (so not a wise choice for an auction purchase especially since it's probably not something that an auction house inspection could tell if it was suffering from, not that you'd necessarily have known about the "ecoboom" problem of course). The auction house might try deflect from the overheating damage by suggesting that purchasing a used "ecoboom" engine is always a gamble, but perhaps a good lawyer could work around this.

Regarding the ABS light that you said is not currently showing up but was in the auction house's photos (?), perhaps they cleared the codes before shipping it to you to help hide problems? The vehicle's diagnostic data should show when they were last cleared. If they they cleared them before selling it to you then this raises the question of why they would do that other than to hide problems, and this may help your case.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.

Thanks for your reply, very interesting.. I will see if i can get some advice on this and the costs involved with a lawyer etc. You have some very valid points.  Thanks 

[TomsFocus]

5 minutes ago, AUDIdoTHAT said:

U doesn't necessarily mean damaged and smashed to bits, it just means unrecorded from what i understand, 

A car could go in a salvage auction as cat U if it's ex fleet, with a knackered engine for example. They can't sell it so they dispose of it as salvage,

Or It also could be that a vehicle was stolen, the insurance company paid out to the owner after which the vehicle is subsequently recovered after pay out. 

Or cars that only had 3rd party insurance , and no pay out was made and no write off. 

I have the new logbook for mine, and like a cat N or S etc, it would usually show on the logbook front page, Mine dosnt show anything. Which i thought would be better when i eventually sold it.

I'm no expert in cat U's etc, but theres multiple reasons it can be in an auction other than been smashed to bits and hidden.

I had a cat C truck for 10 years and it never gave me an issue, i bought it for £4000 and 10 years later its just been shipped to Ukraine for the war aid of something. It sold for £5200 with 80,000 miles, I personally did 2000 miles a year for the last 10 years. So it was a good investment really which didn't lose me any money in 10 years.

Cat N isn't shown on the logbook.  I've owned a few of them.  Legally you are meant to disclose it when selling though.

I don't mean I'm confused by the cat U status, I mean I'm confused why you'd think that's better than a Cat N.  It just means there hasn't been a full damage assessment done on the car, so there's no way of knowing just how much damage there is, could be better, could be worse.

I've also repaired some fairly major smashes (for other people lol, I'm not that careless!  ) which were obviously never recorded either.  As I say, the HPI check is a waste of time.  Cat U could mean absolutely anything.  And a clear HPI check doesn't mean a car hasn't been crashed.

Overall, you should just be looking at condition really, forget mileage and cat status.  service history is good to have but if that's just stamps in a book, those are easily faked.  This is why I'd much rather buy privately from eBay where the seller is likely to have owned the car for some time and know it's history.  Too much unknown when buying at auction, paperwork doesn't give you as much info as it seems.

[AUDIdoTHAT]

7 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Cat N isn't shown on the logbook.  I've owned a few of them.  Legally you are meant to disclose it when selling though.

I don't mean I'm confused by the cat U status, I mean I'm confused why you'd think that's better than a Cat N.  It just means there hasn't been a full damage assessment done on the car, so there's no way of knowing just how much damage there is, could be better, could be worse.

I've also repaired some fairly major smashes (for other people lol, I'm not that careless!  ) which were obviously never recorded either.  As I say, the HPI check is a waste of time.  Cat U could mean absolutely anything.  And a clear HPI check doesn't mean a car hasn't been crashed.

Overall, you should just be looking at condition really, forget mileage and cat status.  Service history is good to have but if that's just stamps in a book, those are easily faked.  This is why I'd much rather buy privately from eBay where the seller is likely to have owned the car for some time and know it's history.  Too much unknown when buying at auction, paperwork doesn't give you as much info as it seems.

Yeah i get what your saying,  Condition is all i had to go by really on this, But even that can mean noting also,  As if something was smashed, and been repaired, its likely to be in great condition looks wise lol. 

I knew the service history wasn't faked as its all main dealer, It wasn't any effort to verify the mileage which i i just did to be sure, The HPI was also just another check, I just tried to do as much as i could to make sure it was genuine, and since having the car, you can tell its been looked after, theres hardly a mark on it, and i have been all over it inside and out, Just somebody has had that pipe split and knackered the engine, The rest is fine.  I may be naive but to me apart from driving it, everything looked fine and genuine.

Just a shame the auction place wasn't as genuine, and did their checks properly, on something so obvious to see. Below is how it turned up to me with the split pipe, this video was 1 min after it came off the delivery lorry, So how the auction place did a inspection, ran it, and didnt see this is beyond me, I spotted it with the bonnet shut.