2 minutes ago, smr said:

Anyway, I'm looking for an Ecoblue

You won't be disappointed 

4 minutes ago, DaveT70 said:

You won't be disappointed 

Thanks Dave

So when viewing a 5 year old Ecoblue with 60k on the clock what things should I be asking or looking out for. Obviously a full service history but what things would need checking and perhaps doing if they haven't already been done?

As mentioned previously I have been pretty much set on an Ecoblue but I've just read that the Ecoboost is chain driven cam with the wet belt for the oil pump. So given that the Diesel is a dry belt (less robust than a chain) and that it also has a wet belt for the oil pump, isn't the Ecoboost actually a better bet as technically there is less to go wrong or is there more to go wrong because it has a turbo? 

 

Diesel 1.5  Dry belt driven cam - wet oil belt

Ecoboost - Chain driven cam - wet oil belt 

I know that the 1.0 is considered underpowered for the Focus but maybe it's worth looking for a 1.5 petrol rather than the Diesel if the 1.5 Petrol is going to be chain driven meaning I wouldn't need to replace it, whereas with the Ecoblue 1.5 I would need to change the dry belt at the service interval, whenever that is.

 

6 minutes ago, smr said:

As mentioned previously I have been pretty much set on an Ecoblue but I've just read that the Ecoboost is chain driven cam with the wet belt for the oil pump. So given that the Diesel is a dry belt (less robust than a chain) and that it also has a wet belt for the oil pump, isn't the Ecoboost actually a better bet as technically there is less to go wrong or is there more to go wrong because it has a turbo? 

 

Diesel 1.5  Dry belt driven cam - wet oil belt

Ecoboost - Chain driven cam - wet oil belt 

I know that the 1.0 is considered underpowered for the Focus but maybe it's worth looking for a 1.5 petrol rather than the Diesel if the 1.5 Petrol is going to be chain driven meaning I wouldn't need to replace it, whereas with the Ecoblue 1.5 I would need to change the dry belt at the service interval, whenever that is.

 

The 1.5 diesel does not have a wetbelt for the oil pump.  The pump on those is driven directly from the crankshaft, no belt or chain needed.

Both engines use a turbo.

The dry belt interval on the 1.5 EcoBlue is the same 10 years as the oil pump wetbelt interval on the 1.0/1.5 EcoBoost.  The oil pump belt change requires removal of the chain, so will be over £1000.  Dry belt on the diesel is nearer £500.

32 minutes ago, smr said:

I know that the 1.0 is considered underpowered for the Focus but maybe it's worth looking for a 1.5 petrol rather than the Diesel if the 1.5 Petrol is going to be chain driven meaning I wouldn't need to replace it, whereas with the Ecoblue 1.5 I would need to change the dry belt at the service interval, whenever that is.

I suspect you're over thinking this !!

All engines made by all manufactures have problems, some are just a lot more known about. The Ecoblue 1.5 is as good as any modern engine gets 👍. If you want something to worry about then an Ecoboost 1.0 should tick all the boxes 🤣

11 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

The 1.5 diesel does not have a wetbelt for the oil pump.  The pump on those is driven directly from the crankshaft, no belt or chain needed.

Both engines use a turbo.

The dry belt interval on the 1.5 EcoBlue is the same 10 years as the oil pump wetbelt interval on the 1.0/1.5 EcoBoost.  The oil pump belt change requires removal of the chain, so will be over £1000.  Dry belt on the diesel is nearer £500.

Ah ok. Thanks for explaining that. I have read about two or three instances of problems to do with what I thought was a chain failing on MK4 Ecoblue's. It must have been the 2.0 litre engines

1 minute ago, smr said:

Ah ok. Thanks for explaining that. I have read about two or three instances of problems to do with what I thought was a chain failing on MK4 Ecoblue's. It must have been the 2.0 litre engines

The chain on the 1.5 EcoBlue is between the two camshafts at the top.

The 2.0 EcoBlue uses wetbelts.

 

1 minute ago, TomsFocus said:

The chain on the 1.5 EcoBlue is between the two camshafts at the top.

The 2.0 EcoBlue uses wetbelts.

 

Ah ok, I think it's that chain which must have snapped on the two or three instances of failures I've read. Is it linked to something to do with the Peugeot Engine and them replacing it with an 8mm chain which is more robust? 

Listen very carefully to the steering when doing low-speed manouvering, as you turn the wheel, see if there's a faint ticking noise esp when turning the wheel to the left. Mine did this just before the warranty was up, dealer at first said "Clok spiring faulty" but when I picked it up they'd replaced the steering column, whaich was quite expensive (but no for me!) Still not sure if they did a bit of over-fixing to get dosh out of Ford ...

 

1 minute ago, smr said:

Ah ok, I think it's that chain which must have snapped on the two or three instances of failures I've read. Is it linked to something to do with the Peugeot Engine and them replacing it with an 8mm chain which is more robust? 

Yes, it is that chain. 

Honestly I'm not sure on that one.  I was under the impression that Ford pulled away from Peugeot when designing the 1.5 EcoBlue engine. 

It's bizarre tbh as the previous 1.5 TDCI (branded Duratorq) was 8 valve with no need for a second camshaft.  I don't understand why they've added all the complexity of another camshaft again.

Yeah I've read about 3-4 cases of that chain snapping but from what I can gather if it does snap it doesn't mean terminal damage for the engine and where I have seen the repair prices for those cases it seems to be around £1000 figure, so I'm guessing the chain doesn't cause terminal damage when it does go, although there was a thread on here recently where someone's Diesel engine went and Ford said it needed a new engine, and I think that was related to the chain but I'm not sure.

I have read more instances of the ecoboost failing though and that does seem to be more prone to causing terminal damage ie. engine replacement when they go. Presumably it must be the oil pump wet belt on the ecoboosts with the cam being chain driven you'd think that it isn't that chain that goes given it's a chain and more robust than a dry belt.

As you say the 1.5 Diesel doesn't have a wet belt for the cam or the oil pump, just a dry belt for the cam so as far as I can gather it's just the 7mm camshaft chain which may be susceptible to failure. I wonder if buying a car at 50-60k it would be prudent to look at pre-empting that failure by upgrading the chain and what the cost would involve, I've probably answered my own question at the beginning of this post though in that where they have snapped the repair bills seem to be around the £1k figure.

44 minutes ago, smr said:

Yeah I've read about 3-4 cases of that chain snapping but from what I can gather if it does snap it doesn't mean terminal damage for the engine and where I have seen the repair prices for those cases it seems to be around £1000 figure, so I'm guessing the chain doesn't cause terminal damage when it does go, although there was a thread on here recently where someone's Diesel engine went and Ford said it needed a new engine, and I think that was related to the chain but I'm not sure.

I have read more instances of the ecoboost failing though and that does seem to be more prone to causing terminal damage ie. engine replacement when they go. Presumably it must be the oil pump wet belt on the ecoboosts with the cam being chain driven you'd think that it isn't that chain that goes given it's a chain and more robust than a dry belt.

As you say the 1.5 Diesel doesn't have a wet belt for the cam or the oil pump, just a dry belt for the cam so as far as I can gather it's just the 7mm camshaft chain which may be susceptible to failure. I wonder if buying a car at 50-60k it would be prudent to look at pre-empting that failure by upgrading the chain and what the cost would involve, I've probably answered my own question at the beginning of this post though in that where they have snapped the repair bills seem to be around the £1k figure.

Due to the design of the 1.5 EcoBlue engine, when the small cam chain fails on them, only the exhaust cam stops turning, the pistons will generally force any open exhaust valves straight upwards, breaking just the rocker arms above.  So the repair is a new dry belt, new small chain, and a few rocker arms.  As the valves should not have been bent or caused any further internal damage.  I would be interested to know why Ford condemned the engine on that other thread.

The 1.0 EcoBoost wetbelts that are failing regularly are almost exclusively still the cambelt on the old engine.  I think I've only heard of 3 or 4 oil pump belts failing on the later chain engines.

I suspect the cost for the chain upgrade would be around £700 without having to replace rocker arms etc.  You would also have the peace of mind of a fresh cambelt which should be good for another 10 years.

 

28 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Due to the design of the 1.5 EcoBlue engine, when the small cam chain fails on them, only the exhaust cam stops turning, the pistons will generally force any open exhaust valves straight upwards, breaking just the rocker arms above.  So the repair is a new dry belt, new small chain, and a few rocker arms.  As the valves should not have been bent or caused any further internal damage.  I would be interested to know why Ford condemned the engine on that other thread.

The 1.0 EcoBoost wetbelts that are failing regularly are almost exclusively still the cambelt on the old engine.  I think I've only heard of 3 or 4 oil pump belts failing on the later chain engines.

I suspect the cost for the chain upgrade would be around £700 without having to replace rocker arms etc.  You would also have the peace of mind of a fresh cambelt which should be good for another 10 years.

 

I'm not entirely sure, they just said that after replacing the parts there was still a lack of compression in the engine.

Re the MK4 Ecoboosts, the oil pumps are failing quite a bit from what I've read in the 'ecoboost nightmare' group on fb. Just today I've read two posts this morning, one is a 4 year old car and they've been quoted £7.5k by Ford. 

 

ie. this one posted 10 mins ago: 

"So, we have the wet belt issue on our 4 year old fiesta. Ford have had it for 4 weeks and finally replied to us last week and said they are only prepared to give as a gesture of goodwill 25% of the cost of a new engine which is £7450

, or we could give it Ford for scrap and get £250!!!

Ford customer services have advised they will not revisit the issue and to contact the ombudsman if we are not happy.....

not sure what to do really, !"

14 minutes ago, smr said:

Re the MK4 Ecoboosts, the oil pumps are failing quite a bit from what I've read in the 'ecoboost nightmare' group on fb. Just today I've read two posts this morning, one is a 4 year old car and they've been quoted £7.5k by Ford. 

 

ie. this one posted 10 mins ago: 

"So, we have the wet belt issue on our 4 year old fiesta. Ford have had it for 4 weeks and finally replied to us last week and said they are only prepared to give as a gesture of goodwill 25% of the cost of a new engine which is £7450

, or we could give it Ford for scrap and get £250!!!

Ford customer services have advised they will not revisit the issue and to contact the ombudsman if we are not happy.....

not sure what to do really, !"

That's a Fiesta though.  They didn't get the new engine at the same time as the Focus.  It's probably still the old wetbelt engine.

Ah ok, but the point is if that wet belt does go on the MK4 Focus it's likely to be terminal damage. I guess with the Diesels there is only the chance of the camshaft chain going and that's 1/7th the price to put right. Making the Diesel a no brainer really?

Just now, smr said:

Ah ok, but the point is if that wet belt does go on the MK4 Focus it's likely to be terminal damage. I guess with the Diesels there is only the chance of the camshaft chain going and that's 1/7th the price to put right. Making the Diesel a no brainer really?

I think you're still getting the old & new 1.0 EcoBoost engines confused.

If the oil pump belt breaks on the new chain engine, the engine remains intact, valves and pistons stay in the correct places, an oil pressure warning will appear on the dashboard, and as long as you switch off the engine immediately, it should still be salvageable with nothing more than a new oil pump belt.  (Cost around £1000 as the chain needs to be removed for access.)

If the cambelt breaks on the old wetbelt engine, pistons smash valves immediately and it's game over for the engine.  (Replacement engine around £3500 from Pumaspeed - don't have to use extortionate Ford dealerships)

The dry belt on the 1.5 EcoBlue could break and cause catastrophic internal damage, although that's rare currently.  If just the chain breaks and leaves the valves and pistons intact, the repair would be around £1000, same as the oil pump belt on the chain driven 1.0 engine

I don't think either engine is a no brainer.  There are pros & cons to both.

3 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

I think you're still getting the old & new 1.0 EcoBoost engines confused.

If the oil pump belt breaks on the new chain engine, the engine remains intact, valves and pistons stay in the correct places, an oil pressure warning will appear on the dashboard, and as long as you switch off the engine immediately, it should still be salvageable with nothing more than a new oil pump belt.  (Cost around £1000 as the chain needs to be removed for access.)

If the cambelt breaks on the old wetbelt engine, pistons smash valves immediately and it's game over for the engine.  (Replacement engine around £3500 from Pumaspeed - don't have to use extortionate Ford dealerships)

The dry belt on the 1.5 EcoBlue could break and cause catastrophic internal damage, although that's rare currently.  If just the chain breaks and leaves the valves and pistons intact, the repair would be around £1000, same as the oil pump belt on the chain driven 1.0 engine

I don't think either engine is a no brainer.  There are pros & cons to both.

Ah ok thanks. And if either car is automatic does that change anything with regards to which would potentially be less troublesome.

I thought that if the wet belt went on the new Ecoboost it would cause catastrophic failure for the engine so it's good to know it won't. 

I've been looking at Diesels exclusively pretty much because I thought it did. Out of interest how does the 1.0 Ecoboost compare to the 1.6 Ti-VCT which was in my last car? Is it the same sort of power output. I was happy with the 1.6 Ti engine and it would make car buying a lot easier if I can include the whole range of Ecoboosts into my car shopping as there are considerably more petrols than diesels - less common, as you'll know, are the 1.5 petrols.

 

 

13 minutes ago, smr said:

And if either car is automatic does that change anything with regards to which would potentially be less troublesome.

If it's automatic the only concern is the transmission going bang before the cam belt or oil pump belt destroy themselves

Yeah actually forget the Ecoboost. There are simply too many stories of them failing even on 2019 engines in that fb group. 

Here's one I just found, there's actually dozens of similar posts like this with 2019 cars

"Our Ford Focus 1.0 Ecoboost from 2020 (bought factory new) is well, yea …. a nightmare…..

It is 3 1/2 years old and we have driven it for 60.000 km.

After a service check up, we have had to replace a malfunctioned wetbelt, and a week after a new engine due to low pressure in one of the cylinders.

A total of around 8.000€"

which is the year I'd be looking at buying. I've only read about one engine replacement in the Diesel and that just sounds like the engine seizing up entirely which is probably an outlier. 

Even in recent Focos Ecoboost the oil pumps are taking the engines with them. I don't think I'd have peace of mind if I bought one, last thing I want to do is buy a car for £10k+ and be worrying about the engine when driving it around

I had to stay out of the EcoBoost Facebook group.  So much misinformation on there it was doing my head in!

I bet you can find horror stories about any engine if you look hard enough.  As I said in another thread yesterday, the days of total reliability are long gone.

1 hour ago, TomsFocus said:

I had to stay out of the EcoBoost Facebook group.  So much misinformation on there it was doing my head in!

Yeah, they're talking on there about absolutely anything with "ecoboost" in the name - basically any recent Ford petrol engine.

Yes I suppose there is more to cars these days and with emissions etc they are developing with less robust materials and design.

If you go on to that group and type '2019' there are multiple stories of the new engine ecoboost oil belts resulting in engine replacements.

The diesel doesn't have its own group which I just think says it all and from my googling, pressing to find any issues with the ecoblue focus 1.5 I've found two or three, one we arent sure what happened and thats the thread on here... the other two involved the camshaft chain snapping and both repairs were a much more reasonable £1k. I just cant find anyother diesel engine replacement posts in these 2019 onwards. My overall feeling is that the Diesel has less that can go wrong and I think Diesels are and have always been more robust and resilient and longer living than petrols. 

1 hour ago, smr said:

If you go on to that group and type '2019' there are multiple stories of the new engine ecoboost oil belts resulting in engine replacements.

Fair enough.  I'll have a look on there tomorrow if it's publicly accessible.

Last time I checked, I found it was mostly just rants against Ford rather than a technical discussion about which components had failed and why.

I don't think we've had any failed oil pump belts on chain engines on this forum so far, so it seems odd that there should be so many on there.

I will have to modify my advice in future if these are becoming unreliable.  Though I'd need proof that it isn't being caused by incorrect oil or engine flush.  And that the resulting engine failure isn't being caused by the driver ignoring the oil pressure light.