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Ruiz123

Flash Code 16 - No crank.

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  1. Hi,

    Long term guest viewer but could do with some advice if that's ok.

    As above, 55 plate fiesta 1.4 Style that wont crank. 

    Immobiliser flashing red led doesnt phase out after ignition turned on. Flash Code 16 (CAN link error between PCM and Instrument Cluster).

    battery is 13v.

    Fuses checked behind glove box ( could not see any under the bonnet).

    battery terminals removed and left for a few hours and also cleaned up the ground to the negative terminal from a thick loom nearby.

    Removed steering column cover and checked PAT ring around ignition barrel all looks good.

    Decided to hook up two different OBD2 readers, but had linking error so tried my laptop with a ELM but software stating 'cannot detect power please check ignition is on' (which it is).

    Bit stumped as to the next plan of attack?

    Regards
     
 
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I have, as above, Flash Code 16, together with E510 on the self test.

Findings/Actions so far:

Voltage Pin 16 = 13.4v

Voltage Pin 4 & 5 - 0v / Resistance 0.04 ohms

Resistance test between Pins 6 and 14 - 60 ohms / Voltage 6/14 2.2v

IC been opened and no dry joints, PCB cleaned up with IPA and swab.

Any help appreciated, cant help but think its actually the ECU but unsure how to test.

The Focus seemed to suffer the E510 more than the Fiesta, infact every post I have read is about the Focus.

Regards

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

I have, as above, Flash Code 16, together with E510 on the self test.

Findings/Actions so far:

Voltage Pin 16 = 13.4v

Voltage Pin 4 & 5 - 0v / Resistance 0.04 ohms

Resistance test between Pins 6 and 14 - 60 ohms / Voltage 6/14 2.2v

IC been opened and no dry joints, PCB cleaned up with IPA and swab.

Any help appreciated, cant help but think its actually the ECU but unsure how to test.

The Focus seemed to suffer the E510 more than the Fiesta, infact every post I have read is about the Focus.

Regards

 

 

To add I have also unplugged  the IC and get, as expected 120ohms.

All connectors in both passenger and drivers kick board have been checked also.

Transceiver on barrel looks good. GEM Module looks like new also.

So either the ECU is not sending out an RF Signal for the Transponder in key to bounce back via Transceiver or it is but the IC is not being given permission by the ECU to turn off immobiliser or the Transponder Key is not replying to the RF Signal?

 

 

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The main 12v power to the diagnostic connector is on pin 16. So it looks like the fuse there is ok, with battery voltage present.

You have tested the 60 ohms on the HS-CAN bus, on pins 6/14, it may be worth repeating this a few times to make sure it is stable.

I assume the resistance was with ignition off, and the voltage (2.2v) was with ignition on. They both sound ok.

What software was being used with the ELM? The "no voltage" problem seems a bit odd. If a self contained scanner is used (with no power other than the DLC, does it light up and operate, at least to the extent is displaying an error message? That would check the power to the DLC.

If the IC self test works enough to read codes, and maybe do a gauge sweep test, and there is no communication on the bus at all, then it could be the PCM is not powered up, I would expect fuses for that to be under the bonnet, but need to check.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

The main 12v power to the diagnostic connector is on pin 16. So it looks like the fuse there is ok, with battery voltage present.

You have tested the 60 ohms on the HS-CAN bus, on pins 6/14, it may be worth repeating this a few times to make sure it is stable.

I assume the resistance was with ignition off, and the voltage (2.2v) was with ignition on. They both sound ok.

What software was being used with the ELM? The "no voltage" problem seems a bit odd. If a self contained scanner is used (with no power other than the DLC, does it light up and operate, at least to the extent is displaying an error message? That would check the power to the DLC.

If the IC self test works enough to read codes, and maybe do a gauge sweep test, and there is no communication on the bus at all, then it could be the PCM is not powered up, I would expect fuses for that to be under the bonnet, but need to check.

 

 

Thanks Peter.

All above correct.

I have a ebay special (the orange one!) and also several free software packages with my ELM327 (non-switched).

This includes Forscan but that just keeps saying "Check Ignition is on", finds the ELM etc.

With "EasyOBD2" it green lights:

PC Ports Checked Okay

Interface Connected

Vehicle Data Bus Okay

But like Forscan it then says 'No Vehicle Response / Connection or Power'

 

 

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And yes sorry, the self contained OBD2 readers light up, 1 goes straight to  'Linking Error' because its for VW lol, the other runs through the checks (KWP/ISO etc) but when I select Engine, DTC, Scan it too says 'Linking Error'.

Apparently having the car immobilised should not stop DTC communication, hence why I am thinking ECU/PCM

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1 minute ago, Ruiz123 said:

So either the ECU is not sending out an RF Signal for the Transponder in key to bounce back via Transceiver or it is but the IC is not being given permission by the ECU to turn off immobiliser or the Transponder Key is not replying to the RF Signal?

I do not have much info on the 2002 - 2008 Fiesta, as to whether the PATS transponder is connected to the IC or to the PCM. But either way, code 16 suggests a communications failure between PCM & IC as they try to authenticate the PATS signal. Also the failure of any diagnostic system to work is a major symptom. This should work even without PATS enabled, it did on my car, and it is needed to re-programme PATS if all keys are lost, or some similar event.

The 60 ohms & 120 ohms do suggest the CAN bus is physically intact between the IC & PCM, at least up to the terminating resistors on the pcbs in those modules, and there is nothing shorting the bus lines together.

I am trying to think of a way to check if the PCM is operating at all, maybe looking at voltages on some of the engine sensors. The MAP sensor, for instance, should have 5v on one pin, from the PCM.

If the IC is operating, then suspicion is on the PCM, or the power to it.

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16 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I do not have much info on the 2002 - 2008 Fiesta, as to whether the PATS transponder is connected to the IC or to the PCM. But either way, code 16 suggests a communications failure between PCM & IC as they try to authenticate the PATS signal. Also the failure of any diagnostic system to work is a major symptom. This should work even without PATS enabled, it did on my car, and it is needed to re-programme PATS if all keys are lost, or some similar event.

The 60 ohms & 120 ohms do suggest the CAN bus is physically intact between the IC & PCM, at least up to the terminating resistors on the pcbs in those modules, and there is nothing shorting the bus lines together.

I am trying to think of a way to check if the PCM is operating at all, maybe looking at voltages on some of the engine sensors. The MAP sensor, for instance, should have 5v on one pin, from the PCM.

If the IC is operating, then suspicion is on the PCM, or the power to it.

I have removed the battery, removed the battery holder, cleaned all grounds with rotary wire to ensure bare metal.

The loom enters from the interior, through the bulkhead and a percentage goes into a large connector held together with a 10mm bolt, once off, the pins and female connectors have been checked with no water ingress/deterioration, from the other side of the connector the loom continues to the ECU.

The remaining loom continues in 2 parts, to a fuse box and to the ABS module, the first part (all thick reds) go into a fuse box via a spaded plugs, which in turn hold 4no 60amp and 1no 40amp, the positive battery connector is connected to the output side of the fuse box, again this was stripped down, cleaned and re-assembled.

The loom is held in place to the ECU connector by way of security bolt, reccessed into the connector, the only way to remove this would be to drill out and replace to expose pins/pin receivers. 

My first thought was to check that the ECU itself was receiving 12v, just not sure which Pin/cable it is as I dont have the ECU Pinout diagram lol!

Edited by Ruiz123

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10 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

The loom is held in place to the ECU connector by way of security bolt, reccessed into the connector, the only way to remove this would be to drill out and replace. 

My first thought was to check that the ECU itself was receiving 12v, just not sure which Pin/cable it is as I dont have the ECU Pinout diagram lol!

Yes, removing the ECU/PCM is always a problem.

But I rather suspect that the sensors that need power (often 5v) will be powered up straight off the internal PCM power rail, regardless of PATS. It would need extra circuitry to switch them off, and Ford are mean about stuff like that. Also there is usually an engine management relay somewhere, that has the job of maintaining power to the PCM after ignition is turned off, so it can do any shut down operations & tests. Then the PCM switches this relay off. This relay usually powers on as soon as ignition is on, again I suspect that would be regardless of PATS.

I have some partial wiring diagrams for the 2008 on Fiesta, but nothing for the 2005 one. They are usually very hard to find. Haynes provides some info, but it is a bit limited.

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2 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Yes, removing the ECU/PCM is always a problem.

But I rather suspect that the sensors that need power (often 5v) will be powered up straight off the internal PCM power rail, regardless of PATS. It would need extra circuitry to switch them off, and Ford are mean about stuff like that. Also there is usually an engine management relay somewhere, that has the job of maintaining power to the PCM after ignition is turned off, so it can do any shut down operations & tests. Then the PCM switches this relay off. This relay usually powers on as soon as ignition is on, again I suspect that would be regardless of PATS.

I have some partial wiring diagrams for the 2008 on Fiesta, but nothing for the 2005 one. They are usually very hard to find. Haynes provides some info, but it is a bit limited.

I will check voltage at MAP sensor, ignition on or off?

If this has voltage, would this point to the PCM being powered?

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1 option that I have been tempted by is £50 for identical ECU, IC, Key, GEM Module & Transceiver Ring - unless its the wiring then surely would resolve ?

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14 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

I will check voltage at MAP sensor, ignition on or off?

If this has voltage, would this point to the PCM being powered?

It should get 5v on one of its pins with ignition on.

(If petrol, then the coil pack may get 12v, but on the 08 Fiesta this is powered from the fuel pump relay, so may possibly be de-energised on a PATS fail (immobilised), If diesel, then the MAF, EGR actuator & Turbo actuator will also get 5v from PCM for their position sensors).

The ECU kit (theft kit I call it, as it is an essential item for any serious thief to carry!), might be a good idea here. Just changing the PCM and trying to establish comms with a diagnostic system would help.

Also if the IC & PCM are changed, then the PATS code should change (with your key) to key not recognised.

It is a bit of a pain to change the key, as all the locks will be on another key. And the ignition barrel lock can be a pain to change.

But usually the PATS chip is a little glass vial or plastic slug hidden in the key. If it can be located, then it can be swapped over, keeping your existing key blades and locks.

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1 minute ago, Tdci-Peter said:

It should get 5v on one of its pins with ignition on.

(If petrol, then the coil pack may get 12v, but on the 08 Fiesta this is powered from the fuel pump relay, so may possibly be de-energised on a PATS fail (immobilised), If diesel, then the MAF, EGR actuator & Turbo actuator will also get 5v from PCM for their position sensors).

The ECU kit (theft kit I call it, as it is an essential item for any serious thief to carry!), might be a good idea here. Just changing the PCM and trying to establish comms with a diagnostic system would help.

Also if the IC & PCM are changed, then the PATS code should change (with your key) to key not recognised.

It is a bit of a pain to change the key, as all the locks will be on another key. And the ignition barrel lock can be a pain to change.

But usually the PATS chip is a little glass vial or plastic slug hidden in the key. If it can be located, then it can be swapped over, keeping your existing key blades and locks.

Will pop out soon to check the 5v. Its a petrol 1.4, I will try the coil pack as well for good measure.

Didnt think about having to change the barrel, cant I just clip the new transponder section of the new key onto my blade ?

Thanks for all your help Peter.

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Just bought the 'theft kit' from ebay. All part numbers are exact as mine, in fact they were made only 6 days apart!

For the sake of £50 I think its a no brainer, may work, may not but its either that or time spent fault finding and then finding out its what I need anyway!

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1 hour ago, Ruiz123 said:

cant I just clip the new transponder section of the new key onto my blade

If you can remove the blade, just the metal part. The PATS capsule may be in the plastic part attached to the blade, it is separate from any remote control circuits. You can not have two PATS capsules close to the transceiver. That will confuse it. The sensing distance is quite short, as the capsule is powered by the RF signal  That is why it is called Passive Anti-Theft System.

Be aware that the car identity (VIN etc) is stored in either the PCM or the IC. This should not normally cause any problems, unless it has to go into a Ford dealer for some reason, and they do a diagnostic check. Then they may query it. But on a 12-13 year old car, this is probably not a major concern, compared to just getting it going again!

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

If you can remove the blade, just the metal part. The PATS capsule may be in the plastic part attached to the blade, it is separate from any remote control circuits. You can not have two PATS capsules close to the transceiver. That will confuse it. The sensing distance is quite short, as the capsule is powered by the RF signal  That is why it is called Passive Anti-Theft System.

Be aware that the car identity (VIN etc) is stored in either the PCM or the IC. This should not normally cause any problems, unless it has to go into a Ford dealer for some reason, and they do a diagnostic check. Then they may query it. But on a 12-13 year old car, this is probably not a major concern, compared to just getting it going again!

 

 

Thanks Peter.

The kit comes with only the fob, no blade. I can simply put my blade onto that fob.

I hope!

Screenshot_20180113-221740.png

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7 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

Thanks Peter.

The kit comes with only the fob, no blade. I can simply put my blade onto that fob.

I hope!

Screenshot_20180113-221740.png

Just been to check my key. IF the chip is in the blade part, then the above lot is useless as it won't come with the chip!!!!

I've opened up the non blade part, all in there is a small pcb, battery and rubber sheet for push buttons.

I have only 'offered not paid for the above yet so needs investigating as to where the chip is I.e. blade or buried in the fob part (Can't see where the could bury it tbh!).

Cheers

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7 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

Just been to check my key. IF the chip is in the blade part, then the above lot is useless as it won't come with the chip!!!!

I've opened up the non blade part, all in there is a small pcb, battery and rubber sheet for push buttons.

I have only 'offered not paid for the above yet so needs investigating as to where the chip is I.e. blade or buried in the fob part (Can't see where the could bury it tbh!).

Cheers

Phew, looks like the T-chip must be in the fob part as the tibbe blades are sold on eBay for few quid and says you just plug your remote fob into it!

Screenshot_20180113-223811.png

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13 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

so needs investigating as to where the chip is I.e. blade or buried in the fob part (Can't see where the could bury it tbh!).

I heard of or seen various locations for the PATS chip, mostly in the top (fob) part. But I seem to remember one picture of it in the lower (blade) part. It makes some sense to put it with the blade, as the fob can then be replaced without any PATS re-programming problems if it gets broken or just badly wet & corrodes.

It is still possibly worth getting the kit, it will be useful as a diagnostic aid. If it does work, and the PATS chip is inextricably buried in the blade part, then Forscan can re-programme PATS, to make the new ECU & IC use your old keys. In theory it may also be able to re-programme the VIN etc, but I know little about that.

Forscan is a very powerful Ford specific system. For PATS, see:

http://forscan.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=839

The fact that even Forscan can not communicate with the car makes me suspect the PCM a bit (in conjunction with the 60ohms correct reading). Forscan goes to the PCM first to get the car model & variant, so it can scan the rest of the modules. If it can not read the PCM, it will assume the PCM is turned off (ignition off).

 

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5 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I heard of or seen various locations for the PATS chip, mostly in the top (fob) part. But I seem to remember one picture of it in the lower (blade) part. It makes some sense to put it with the blade, as the fob can then be replaced without any PATS re-programming problems if it gets broken or just badly wet & corrodes.

It is still possibly worth getting the kit, it will be useful as a diagnostic aid. If it does work, and the PATS chip is inextricably buried in the blade part, then Forscan can re-programme PATS, to make the new ECU & IC use your old keys. In theory it may also be able to re-programme the VIN etc, but I know little about that.

Forscan is a very powerful Ford specific system. For PATS, see:

http://forscan.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=839

 

Cheers Peter.

I am quite confident the chip is in the fob part, few kits on sale with just the fob too plus they sell the tibbe blade part quite freely and even say you just plug your fob into it (after getting the blade cut of course).

Will keep you posted. Thanks again for everything.

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Update.

No 5V (0v) at MAP  or Coil supply.

I am going to try the below as I think the ECU is not receving 12v from the fuse?

Screenshot_20180114-122030.png

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29 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

am going to try the below as I think the ECU is not receving 12v from the fuse?

It looks like the ECU is going to have to be removed next, so the security bolt will have to be removed somehow: Saw a slot in it, drill it out, or grind it out. But take a bit of care not to get swarf inside it, or damage it during the operation!)

Then with the ECU unplugged, as suggested above, the wiring can be tested through for 12v.

Do you have a link for the above info? There is a fusebox next to the ECU in it, but I gather that the 2002-2008 Fiesta only has the internal (glovebox) fusebox. In fact that photo looks suspiciously like a Focus to me!

I have been looking for wiring / pin-out info with no success so far!

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24 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

It looks like the ECU is going to have to be removed next, so the security bolt will have to be removed somehow: Saw a slot in it, drill it out, or grind it out. But take a bit of care not to get swarf inside it, or damage it during the operation!)

Then with the ECU unplugged, as suggested above, the wiring can be tested through for 12v.

Do you have a link for the above info? There is a fusebox next to the ECU in it, but I gather that the 2002-2008 Fiesta only has the internal (glovebox) fusebox. In fact that photo looks suspiciously like a Focus to me!

I have been looking for wiring / pin-out info with no success so far!

http://www.actronics.eu/en/ford-focus-instrument-cluster/#

Hi Peter 

Yes it was for a focus!.

Just at glove box fuse box now, not sure which fuse is for the EDU lol

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26 minutes ago, Ruiz123 said:

Just at glove box fuse box now, not sure which fuse is for the EDU lol

There is some confusion about Fusebox info for the Fiesta, made worse by the way the Mk numbers have got mixed up, the 5th generation (2002-2008) is called Mk6 in UK.

In the site below, it shows an engine bay fuse box for this date range:

http://www.autogenius.info/ford-fiesta-mk5-fuse-box/

But it also shows a single (internal) fusebox:

http://www.autogenius.info/ford-fiesta-mk6-fuse-box-diagram-eu-version/

In the single fusebox version, there only seems to be one likely fuse, with the engine symbol on it.

In the 2 fusebox version there is F19 in the internal fusebox, and a few more (F28, F32, F36) in the engine bay fusebox that may be relevant.

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