Arrest Or Not Arrest?

[Ianb]

It appears the crims have more freedom than we do... Well, perhaps not, but they don't care about breaking the laws, so weapons are something extra they're allowed as they're screwed anyway...

We, Joe public, are rather stuck within the law. I was wondering what classes as a weapon...

For instance, I'm doing a lot of renovation work, so I wouldn't think twice about nipping down the road to grab a few things without emptying my site trouser pockets of a screwdriver and a Stanley knife... Is that OK? If it's during the day I'm sure I can argue I'm actually working... But what if it's at night when I'm heading to the shop with the wife and I've not got changed?

Then there is the more thought out defences... Pepper spray is illegal... What about tobasco? Is a bottle of tobasco in the pocket illegal? Is a small spray bottle filled with it illegal? What if you used it to defend yourself?

Not that I'm planning anything, but thoughts?

[MONDEO TXS 2.2]

Enter Clive stage left . . . . . . .

[Dales]

Well I must admit if my shift was finished one of the first things I would do is empty my pockets of the tools I used. Put them in a tool box/bag, Whatever it was I used to keep them all together and out of harms way safe so to speak.

Not just because of the fact they would be a pain when I got in the car/van for the drive home. Probably partly because the last thing I would want is a screwdriver busting through the seat of my car/van. worse still me.

So the chances of me going to the shops etc with the wife tooled up ( sorry couldn't resist the tooled up ) are pretty slim.

See where you are coming from though.

I know we can sometimes forget what we have in our pockets, but I think we all know its not a good idea to run about with a Stanley in our pockets after work if you use one for work. Again I personally think the chances of me myself being in that position would be slim as I would just think its not a good idea, but it might slip your mind.

But most tradesmen look after their tools so again they would be stored in a toolbox/bag once the shift was finished, less chance of them getting lost damaged etc.

[jmurray01]

Never mind knifes, give the Government a couple of years and carrying a pack of cigarettes in your pocket will be illegal.

[Ianb]

Dales, the reason I have tools in my pocket is because I live in the building I'm working in, and I wear "builders trousers" the dickies type ones, therefore tools sit in the lower leg pockets and it saves me running up and down 70 stairs if I forget something... But I get your point...

[jeebowhite]

Any bladed article which can be locked in place and exceeds 4 inches is considered an offensive weapon. Carrying a stanley knife is technically a short but locking blade and can be equally offensive. Screw drivers are the same, they are seen as a puncture weapon.

Any large, heavy object of long cylindrical design with weight, be it a bat, or torque wrench, those are offensive. If the article is not a walking stick and has no decent grounds for carrying it.

Any intentional design solution caused to be used in the face, to cause temporary discomfort or pain is considered a weapon. Such products can cause blindness, temporary or long term.

Any manufactured device which can deliberately instil an electric shock to the recipient is also a weapon.

The only real "defensive" weapon you can carry, which would be seen as legal, would be an LED torch with flashing sequence, such that you can use the light from a distance in the dark to disorientate any individual to allow yourself time to escape.

Basically, if your article physically connects with any person, and can cause a bruise, puncture, swelling or can be absorbed through the body and can cause ill effects, its considered a weapon. The degree of blade, weight, or risk to the injured party decides if its considered an offensive weapon.

[Goodkat]

Is it four inches? I once had a elegant 3 inch locking knife confiscated by the rozzers for being illegal... Do they owe me it back? I thought the police frown upon any locking knife.

Sent via the 'Clacks'

GNU STP

[Ianb]

I suppose all the above is true unless you've got a good reason, for instance if I walked to the shop and bought a Stanley knife, didn't want to pay 5p for a bag and stuffed it in my work pants I doubt I'd be had up for carrying a weapon....

However, let's say I'm working away and realise I need something from the merchants, I hope into the van and down the road get hauled out by some Road rage person who yelled "I'm going to kill you" loud enough for everyone to hear, wouldn't it be reasonable that I'd use any force available to save my life..even if it meant panickingly producing a Stanley knife from my pocket?

Or are we all at the understanding these days that the law requires you to just curl up and either wait for help or die?

[jeebowhite]

sadly threatening with a weapon is as bad as using it, and you would likely be done for that too! as for the knife, 3 inches may be right!

[Stoney871]

Any bladed article with a locking blade in public is illegal.

Things like pipe smokers tools and nail scissors etc are fine.

In a nutshell- any item used in a manner for which it was not intended (to intimidate, threaten or cause/put in fear of bodily harm) is likely to be termed an offensive weapon.

Work tools being carried to/from work etc are acceptable but should be carried sensibly.

A screwdriver in a car boot is ok, in a door pocket may not be depending on situation.

Walking down a street at 2am carrying tools in your pockets may be classed as 'going equipped'.

Common sense and appropriate circumstances apply.

[WAZ91]

So the torque wrench i keep in the boot is ok but if i had it on the back seat it would become the discreation of the police officer as to weather it's an offensive weapon?

[jeebowhite]

In a nutshell yes. I know someone who was done for it. Got his tyres changed and was told to check and tighten after 100 miles, his boot was fully loaded so could access where it usually lived. sat down and reached behind, stowed it in the rear footwell and went. The police pulled him for the fact his car looked overloaded as the back end was down and have him a caution for carrying an offensive weapon.

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[Ianb]

Heres a what if...

I carry a baseball bat and a tennis ball (I actually don't for the record)... There is evidence of dog hair in the back which helps my excuse of "it's for the dog"... However because I drive an estate but there is only the wife and me and the dog, I decided as it's winter to fold the seats down, therefore the boot is now everything behind the drivers seat... I step on the brakes and being a round shape, the bat rolls forward and gets caught by a dog blanket so remains behind the passenger seat.... Offensive weapon? What would a police officers discretion meter be reading?

[jeebowhite]

You have thought that through too much.

Basically if it can be easily accessed it could be treat as a weapon. If you are with your wife and dog, its unlikely tour going to go out and cave skulls, however if you were on your own then it could be a different story.

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[TomsFocus]

I've been driving around with a 3 foot breaker bar, trolley jack and box full of 'car crime' tools (locking nut removers, bolt cutters etc) in the boot... I did have genuine reason for it but I'm glad I never got pulled!

As for knives, I'm too accident prone for them, they stay locked in a tool box unless absolutely necessary, then placed back there immediately after use. I hate Stanley knives, always worried I'm gonna lose a finger.

[SeanW]

One the hardest habits for me to break when I leave a ship is carrying a knife of some description.

Onboard most of us carry knives. My current one is a Gerber Diesel multi-tool, but I do have a 5" fixed blade rigging knife (actually, I have about 3 at home lol).

Quite often have one in my boot as well (use it as a Sea Cadet Instructor and it often just gets lobbed back in the boot lol)

I also have a 4" locking blade permanently attached via a lanyard to my buoyancy aid for when I'm on the water with Cadets.

[Ianb]

You have thought that through too much.

Basically if it can be easily accessed it could be treat as a weapon. If you are with your wife and dog, its unlikely tour going to go out and cave skulls, however if you were on your own then it could be a different story.

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I actually meant that there was no wife and no dog in the car, however because in my 'marriage' there is only wife and dog it makes sense not to have back seats exposed, and am I supposed to take dog paraphernalia out each time? Could smother someone with a blanket, strangle them with a lead or choke them with a poo bag... Ofcourse it's thought too deeply, but the problem is it's exactly those innocent situations that suddenly seem so criminal that I'm on about... It dawned on me I've quickly trotted into the business bank on my way too or from somewhere and probably had a stanley knife in the pocket then... Innocent? Totally, but when I have to tell a 30 page story to explain how innocent I am, it all starts to get a little suspicious....

[jeebowhite]

Easiest answer is to stick these things under the carpet.

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[Focu5]

I carry a heavy metal torch when I walk the dog in the evenings now they're dark. I also keep one in my car all year round incase I breakdown at night.

Not really interest in what dibble thinks, that comes a lot further down the list of concerns after I've made sure my family and I are safe from the criminals out there who think nothing of carrying real weapons regardless of legislation.

I also keep 'weapons' in key locations around the house.

Basically I've made just sure that I ever come in contact with a burglar/mugger/etc. I'm not the one who ends up worse off. Will probably never need to worry about it.

[Stoney871]

Carrying a torch is fine as long as it's not used in a manner for which it is not intended.

Leaving innoculous items around a dwelling in case of possible intruders could be misconstrued as having intent to commit assault against intruders.

Minimum reasonable force rules still apply within private property, if someone was to make unlawful entry and you were to proceed to beat the living snot out of them with an array of strategically positioned items then the hand of justice may well fall upon you.

You would also be giving intruders a nice array of weapons to use against you.

A heavy torch and a rolling pin are acceptable but a samurai sword/baseball bat in every room would be excessive.

If you live in an area where you are fearful of the safety of your household you would be better served by fitting better locks and an alarm with panic buttons in numerous locations.

Incidentally, it is lawful to carry a 'defensive spray', this is a spray can not dissimilar in shape/operation to pepper sprays whereby the only substance released is water containing a non-toxic dye (visible or UV) which will disorientate an attacker and leave a visible indicator that Police can use to positively ID an offender.

P.S, please don't use slang terms for police on this forum, I take offence at this.

I get paid to hear those terms at work but would rather not encounter them here.

Ta.

[jeebowhite]

Those uv lira are good but they don't have the same sting so don't last as long so you will need to be quick after using them.

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[Stoney871]

The idea is to spray them and use the disorientation they suffer from it going in their eyes (plus them not knowing if it is pepper spray or not and whether it is safe to open their eyes) and extract yourself from the situation asap.

[Ianb]

The idea is to spray them and use the disorientation they suffer from it going in their eyes (plus them not knowing if it is pepper spray or not and whether it is safe to open their eyes) and extract yourself from the situation asap.

A swift kick in the testy-clays might and your escape...

[jeebowhite]

nah your getting closer they can grab you!

[Stoney871]

Running away bravely whilst shaping your index and middle finger on both hands into a v and shouting a word which is a version of self-helper is the best option. ;)