The subsidies are proof that the EV is not actually viable at scale. It’s like swimming against the tide. Market forces will eventually prevail. Kings, Presidents and the law can “demand” whatever they will. But, if it doesn’t work in the non theoretical, non political world, nothing can change that. It is then essentially a scam.

Not directly on EVs, but governments policy on 'energy', here in NI has huge holes in it. (goodness knows what the thinking is in how to charge EVs) Our only coal fired power station, Kilroot, was shut down at the end of last year.

However, they forgot that they'll need to replace it with some thing else. We now learn that 'wind' isn't blowing enough to compensate for the loss of proper fossil fuel, which wad reliable, and relatively cheap.

Is it any wonder why so many folk are losing faith in 'government', they are a bunch of incompetent eejits....

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/environment/amber-alert-on-nis-electricity-grid-as-wind-doesnt-blow-and-loss-of-kilroot-slashes-margins/a19035892.html

37 minutes ago, Scottman said:

The subsidies are proof that the EV is not actually viable at scale.

It's all getting quite silly. We have the government fining manufacturers for not selling EVs that the ordinary buyer plainly doesn't want to buy, at least yet.

Perhaps they will use the revenue from the fines** to provide buyer subsidies, but that would be more likely to benefit those who produce more affordable EVs. MG is already the leader in the "affordable" EV market in the UK, and BYD (who have already overtaken Tesla globally) have now entered the UK market):

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/global-ev-sales-chinese-carmaker-byd-overtakes-tesla

(**If they ever get any - no doubt VW and others have a cheat device in hand!😀).

16 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

However, they forgot that they'll need to replace it with some thing else.

Well, they do produce a lot of hot air - perhaps that could be channelled into something useful...........

15 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

We now learn that 'wind' isn't blowing enough to compensate for the loss of proper fossil fuel, which wad reliable, and relatively cheap.

If only we could find away to harness all the Hot Air talked in parliament, we'd have free heating and be able to run countless generators 🤣

3 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Well, they do produce a lot of hot air - perhaps that could be channelled into something useful..........

See, we have found the solution 🤣

For anyone interested there is a very good YT channel:’Auto Expert John Cadogan’.He can be a bit over the top, but he is a very experienced guy.Latest one on EV’s is a very good watch, quite a few comments from the UK as well.Enjoy! (Latest one btw)

The recent announcement of Tata closing their traditional steel works in Wales with the loss of 3000 jobs is just appalling. It cements Teresa May's position as one of the worst PMs we've had by her in 2019 introducing her ill thought 'net zero' policies. What effect did she think such a draconian policy would have?

Apparently it now leaves the UK as one of the few developed countries without the ability to produce their own virgin steel. We already can't make batteries for EVs so are dependent on outside forces beyond our control. I despair, I simply despair.

I feel so sorry for those poor folk losing their jobs so instead of being a net contributor to our economy of paying in about £35 Million annually in income tax, will now cost the economy about £30 Million annually in benefits. Someone should provide the government with a calculator!

A nation that doesn’t have a plan for economic growth and industrial development is doing a disservice to its citizens. It is making itself vulnerable to other nations that would exploit or attack them. 
Every British citizen should be pressing their government ministers to explain WHY they are not making any economic development plan?

No economic growth plan is the equivalent of no future.

I think this has been mentioned somewhere else on the forum but the mainstream press seem to have picked up big time on the Focus being the most scrapped car in 2023, apparently followed by the Corsa, Astra, Fiesta and Golf. 

I was reading the version in the Yorkshire Post whose "motoring journalist" has a reputation (in our house at least!) for writing utter tripe. According to this luminary, these high scrappage rates "illustrate the change in the motor industry with the rush to buy electric vehicles".

So it's nothing to do with the sheer volume of old ones about, with these cars having been top sellers since 1998 (Focus), 1993 (Corsa), 1984 (Astra), 1976 (Fiesta) and 1974 (Golf), then?

1 minute ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

... "illustrate the change in the motor industry with the rush to buy electric vehicles".

The old press adage still holds true, 'You should never let the truth get in the way of a good story...'.

I'm sure the journalist in question wrote the article in their study at home, whilst eating the required avocado on toast, whilst sipping their home made latte...

 

2 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

I'm sure the journalist in question wrote the article in their study at home, whilst eating the required avocado on toast, whilst sipping their home made latte...

.......and rarely driving (or even researching properly) what he's supposed to be writing about.

A typical review from this guy might, for example, bang on about the excellence of the manual box in a car (which is auto only) and the interior shot will clearly show the auto selector.

This weeks other gem is a review of a Mazda Skyactiv-D diesel which, according to this guy, manages over 180 bhp and 328 lbs/ft without a turbo, though Mazda seem to differ:

SKYACTIV-D

Features of SKYACTIV-D

・20 percent better fuel efficiency thanks to the low compression ratio of 14.0:1
・A new two-stage turbocharger realizes smooth and linear response from low to high engine speeds, and greatly increases low- and high-end torque (up to the 5,200 rpm rev limit)
・Complies with global emissions regulations (Euro6 in Europe and the Post New Long-Term Regulations in Japan), without expensive NOx aftertreatment

The state of journalism is not particularly good in America either. I once subscribed to Car and Driver, because it was a local publication. And I also got Autoweek for years. My dad took a Couple of British publications centered around the Triumph sports cars he enjoyed. 
we gave them all up years ago. I have given up on mainstream news media as well.

I am also not very interested or impressed with the new cars. I look at the price sticker and start calculating how much less expensive it will be to buy a solid older vehicle and restore that!

 

2 minutes ago, Scottman said:

 I once subscribed to Car and Driver,

I also subscribed to C&D decades ago but they increased their airmail rates and I cancelled. I use to love reading it, in the 70s & 80s it was very exotic getting a USA magazine sent directly!

10 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

I also subscribed to C&D decades ago but they increased their airmail rates and I cancelled. I use to love reading it, in the 70s & 80s it was very exotic getting a USA magazine sent directly!

That’s exactly how I felt about getting the UK titles! 
I still enjoy them on occasion. I picked up the Fiesta retrospective by Key publishing. A great addition to the library!

But, I have shelves filled with books and periodicals, shop manuals, crash estimate guides etc. this last one is just one of two shelves in my bedroom!

In America, you must go to the business channels of television news media in order to see ANYTHING about how EV’s and EV charging infrastructure is holding up in sub freezing conditions.

The mainstream news media is entirely silent on the issues. Perhaps they are too busy trying to find a functional charger to juice up their EV batteries for the seventh time in as many days?

34 minutes ago, Scottman said:

...Perhaps they are too busy trying to find a functional charger to juice up their EV batteries for the seventh time in as many days?

I've said it before, but the UK is such a small country compared to USA. 400 miles here would be a long trip as you'd fall off the edge much longer. In USA it's 3000 miles cost to coast. What is the intelligence of a government that has said that EVs are the way forward in such a car based American culture?

I'm banking on a legion of RedNecks with some amoury slung over their shoulder to persuade otherwise. 😁

Guess it's the same here, those in power pass legislation that will have no effect on them. Rich will always have a mechanism for long travel, usually in a privet jet...

I believe that the government sees the eventual mandate for EVs as a step towards limiting our mobility. Petrol cars go away and our range is reduced. EVs become the new standard for personal mobility. Then they will adjust the availability and price of chargers accordingly.

Or they might decide to limit the number of available chargers in any given area. There are a multitude of ways that they can control the ability to travel. I am certain that they are absolutely terrified of the idea that a personal vehicle can take one anywhere at any time in nearly total anonymity. The traffic cameras in London are a prime example of the overwhelming desire of the elite to control and track the movement of the people.

Just this week, Chairman of Toyota is quoted:

Chairman Akio Toyoda believes battery electric vehicles will reach at most 30 percent market share, with the rest taken up by hybrids, hydrogen fuel cell and fuel-burning cars.

With a billion people in the world living without electricity, limiting their choices and ability to travel by making expensive cars isn’t the answer, the grandson of the company’s founder said during a business event this month, according to remarks published on the company’s media platform Tuesday. “Customers — not regulations or politics — should make that decision,” he said.

The world’s No. 1 carmaker has pushed back against criticism of falling behind in the transition to EVs, saying that its pioneering hybrid drivetrains, hydrogen technology and holistic approach will ultimately prove to be the right approach for the business, customers and the environment. Earlier this month, Toyoda announced an initiative to develop new combustion engines.

Seems there is some common sense at the top of one of the worlds major car manufactures. Like many here state time & time again, government need to stay out of this and let market forces strive through

 

13 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

Seems there is some common sense at the top of one of the worlds major car manufactures. Like many here state time & time again, government need to stay out of this and let market forces strive through

Yes, I am frequently struck by the wisdom of Mr Toyoda. I see a lot of sense from the heads of other vehicle manufacturers also, including Luca De Meo at Groupe Renault, and Carlos Tavares of Stellantis.

7 hours ago, Scottman said:

I believe that the government sees the eventual mandate for EVs as a step towards limiting our mobility.

I think I've said this before, I'm not a fan of such conspiracy theories. For such a conspiracy to exist would need much collaboration, much intelligence, and much secrecy, all attributes that government does not possess. I'm much more believe in the theory that government is just lacking in intelligence, and can't genuinely see the outcomes of their actions.

Due to the fact that in reality, they have very short term views due to the fact they have no accountability whatsoever for a decision they make right now, of the consequence in 20+ years.

Recent examples include the disastrous HS2 railway plans, and also the total lack of nuclear reactor planning for the UK.

The WEF, WHO, NATO and the rest of the alphabet of non governmental organizations are the incubation chamber’s of the “conspiracy theories”. The personal vehicle is just low hanging fruit from a regulatory standpoint. Government loves to increasingly regulate that segment because the effects are quickly visible and the regulatory machine is immediately increased in size with each new mandate.

In spite of the technological disaster of the electric F150, there is an impressive amount of technology buried in the body shell. I just don’t think it’s being configured and deployed to the proper application!

To put the cost into perspective. Ford could have developed and launched a natural gas fueled portable fuel cell power generation station for the same money they pi$$ed away on the Lightning! It wouldn’t have been required to meet any crash standards and the buyer could have purchased or leased it through the existing Ford Credit financial services mechanism!

It would be a new market segment for Ford. But, Ford has a history of building it’s own power generation capability for it’s plant operations, so is it really such a stretch of the imagination to go into the power generation business?

Does anyone here NOT think that it would be very cool to walk into a Ford dealership that was entirely powered by four nat gas fuel cells daisy chained to meet the requirements of the facility? 

 

Having mentioned Mr Toyoda et al  earlier, picked up one or two other interesting things from manufacturers.

Toyota themselves are now incorporating the hot GR Yaris (which was originally just a limited run) in their regular range "for as long as they can".

The Yaris based Lexus LBX hybrid is being trialled with the GR Yaris powertrain and, given Mr Toyoda's enthusiasm for such things may well make it into production for some markets.

Dacia (part of Groupe Renault of course) and discussed on other threads, have indicated they will be continuing to offer ICE as long as possible.

Renault itself has reintroduced a petrol Clio in addition to the hybrid as they apparently appreciate that not all customers can afford hybrids or full EVs.

Stellantis have decided to offer a petrol version of the new small(ish) Jeep Avenger for £12k less than the cheapest electric version.

Seems to be a pattern here.

19 minutes ago, Scottman said:

Does anyone here NOT think that it would be very cool to walk into a Ford dealership that was entirely powered by four nat gas fuel cells daisy chained to meet the requirements of the facility? 

 

In the early 1970s, my Uncle (who worked for GM in Detroit for his whole career), took me on a tour round the whole GM facility. In the foyer, there was a prototype 'gas turbine' car which was the stuff of science fiction then, I loved it. Wonder whatever happened to the concept 😂

Apple has just announced that they have pushed the release of the Apple car to around 2028. The autonomous EV is evidently running into more than a few hurdles, market acceptance rates being just one of the problems.

The gas turbine engine ran into a cost of technology wall. Fuel efficiency also  was a problem. Ford had a gas turbine engine program for large trucks. Their showcase turbine truck was named “Big Red”. It pulled two Fruehauf built custom trailer’s it was a fully functional  turbine engine powered semi truck that was at the 1964 Worlds fair. It was somewhat overshadowed by the introduction of the Mustang and the magic skyway pavilion. But it was still very impressive. Big Red still exists in a private collection and one of it’s three engines not installed in the chassis is also still in a complete state.