Energy chat, the future of car propulsion

[alanfp]

8 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

I'm truly uncertain if that is a sarcastic comment or not!  Have you met our government??

You can take it either way 😉

I think I was expressing my hope that things might improve in the future, while pointing out that there have been failings in the past. 

Going forward (awful phrase) we need a mixture of cynicism and optimism. 

[Scottman]

35 minutes ago, alanfp said:

You can take it either way 😉

I think I was expressing my hope that things might improve in the future, while pointing out that there have been failings in the past. 

Going forward (awful phrase) we need a mixture of cynicism and optimism. 

“Going forward” is not the worst “filler phrase” ever. I am a regular viewer of a YouTube channel called Munro live. It’s probably the best program for learning about the automotive industry and particularly the EV industry! The company Mr Monro owns does reverse engineering and components costing on new vehicles. They buy a new car and then completely take it apart and then engineering teams study and calculate the cost of everything including the adhesives and wiring. They then compile the information into a series of binders and sell the binders to the industry. 
you gents should check it out! But, Sandy Munro has a quirk in his speaking style. That quirk is the frequent use of the phrase “at the end of the day”. 
I have turned watching the program into a new drinking game once a month. Every time Sandy says the magic phrase I take a shot of schnapps or vodka! The last time I played the game I woke up on the living room floor!

 I would recommend that you set up four to six shots in advance! Enjoy.

[unofix]

3 hours ago, alanfp said:

Going forward (awful phrase) we need a mixture of cynicism and optimism. 

Or as I view it:

Looking to the future we need a mixture of scepticism, and realistic expectations !

I'd just like to add I'm a very big supporter of 'scepticism' (I have a season ticket) and a great believer in being realistic.

[alanfp]

Reminds me of the cleaning cloth that my Dad kept in his glasses case when I was a child that was printed with the slogan:

"You can't be optimistic with a misty optic". 

[Alex.S]

[Scottman]

9 minutes ago, Alex.S said:

That’s quite reasonable. How about being directed to a GM dealership service department by Tesla for service in outlying areas! Yes, it happens. Tesla has warranty service agreements with GM dealerships that are certified for EV service. 

[Alex.S]

[Eric Bloodaxe]

3 hours ago, Alex.S said:

Hey, that's a great tip! Are we definitely sure it works on UK spec Teslas though, before I try it out!😃

[Eric Bloodaxe]

Back to being serious, spotted this story in various places:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/exclusive-uk-firms-radical-tech-can-charge-ev-10-minutes

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2023/apr/fast-charging-battery-spinout-powers-major-investment

Could make a big difference to the practicalities of EV charging. 

 

[unofix]

mmmmmm..............

Not convinced. Firstly there is the small problem of basic Maths. A normal EV on fast charge takes around an hour to get a meaning full charge. They firstly talk about it reducing the time in half and then go on to talk about it being charged in 10 minutes ?

Then there is the next major issue. Where is all the electricity coming from ? The UK and virtually every country in the world can't even generate enough electricity for the demands now. Add to that the infrastructure that is not in place, and it would cost more than a Kings ransom to even begin to upgrade the distribution network, and I just see this as yet another distraction from the real question of whether EV's are the future of transport.  

[Eric Bloodaxe]

10 minutes ago, unofix said:

They firstly talk about it reducing the time in half and then go on to talk about it being charged in 10 minutes ?

I think we'd need to see a fuller paper on this (you might understand it - I certainly wouldn't!) but I took it that they were perhaps talking about halving the time to fully charge a battery to 100%. The 10 minute thing being the time to get 150-200 miles worth of charge which would be only half capacity on something like a Tesla Model S which I believe claims 405 miles range. (To digress - didn't you just love the "rapid unscheduled disassembly" comment when Musk's rocket blew up?).

Don't really see how they can generalise when there are so many different battery types, capacities and charging rates but that may be more journalists looking for a catchy headline than the claims of scientists.

Electricity - yes, that remains the big unanswered question. I'm sure many just think it magically comes out of a socket in the same way bacon comes from Tescos!

[Condi]

4 hours ago, unofix said:

Not convinced. Firstly there is the small problem of basic Maths. A normal EV on fast charge takes around an hour to get a meaning full charge. They firstly talk about it reducing the time in half and then go on to talk about it being charged in 10 minutes ?

Then there is the next major issue. Where is all the electricity coming from ? The UK and virtually every country in the world can't even generate enough electricity for the demands now. Add to that the infrastructure that is not in place, and it would cost more than a Kings ransom to even begin to upgrade the distribution network, and I just see this as yet another distraction from the real question of whether EV's are the future of transport.  

 

The new charging stations (I mean, like petrol stations but for EV's, not your home charger) will charge directly from the transmission network. The battery physics of it is for clever people to work out, but "basic maths" of getting enough electricity there isn't an issue at all. 

Regarding where the electricity is going to come from, we have plenty of electricity. Over-night most of our power stations are shut down. When we don't have a lot of spare electricity is 5pm on a cold January evening, but unless you really needed to why would you be charging then? You'd plug your car in and it charges at 3am when electricity is cheap. Overall demand for electricity has been going down year on year as a result of efficiencies in other areas, swapping 100w filament bulbs for 10w LEDs for example. Peak demand this year was only 44.5GW, down from 51.2GW in 2015, or a 13% reduction in only 8 years. 

As for whether EVs are the future, who knows, but it's a much more efficient use of energy than petrol and diesel is, and is obviously much cleaner at the tailpipe. In 30 years time we'll look at pictures of London gridlocked with petrol cars all running their engines while waiting at traffic lights wondering how on earth that was ever considered acceptable. For heavy equipment that may still run on diesel, but I doubt personal transport will aside from some enthusiasts. 

 

[StephenFord]

22 minutes ago, Condi said:

When we don't have a lot of spare electricity is 5pm on a cold January evening, but unless you really needed to why would you be charging then? You'd plug your car in and it charges at 3am when electricity is cheap.

That's grand for the 30 odd Million that can have chargers at home, what about the rest of 7 million motorists that will have to rely on 'public' chargers...

[Scottman]

When it comes to rapid charging it’s really all about chemistry. I won’t use the old phrase about it “all boils down to” bit. But, it kind of boils literally as the electricity is pushed back into the storage matrix. There is a cooling system that helps remove the thermal reaction. But, there are some immutable laws in play (thermodynamics and electrical engineering theory)that causes the pathway for rapid charging to be a rough one.

As I understand the situation right now, the industry has a battery lifespan target that has an issue with the battery being rapid charged AND maintaining a reasonable useful life.

the industry is also trying to find a way to stop the battery from experiencing a drop off of range if it is not being driven down. 
Range shrinkage won’t be considered much of a problem until you are being taxed for kw that is just disappearing. And believe me, they are going to tax us heavily!

 

[iantt]

I'm rapidly charging my car today , well I rushed outside and plugged it in.

[Scottman]

Just make sure that it doesn’t “run away “ from you! If that’s even possible. In February, Ford had an event occur at a charging station on the corporate property. An F150 was getting recharged and things went wrong. The Dearborn fire department is not quite sure how to most quickly extinguish an EV battery fire. So the conflagration spread to the trucks parked on both sides of the burning vehicle. This event caused a stop build   Order. The investigation was ongoing and I have not found a update. This was definitely unusual. It’s possible that the charger had a problem. So I won’t assume that the vehicle was the culprit. 
But, this highlights the volatile nature of pushing high amperage electricity into a battery. Rapid charging is not a casual event. There is a lot of thermal management and monitoring going on between the vehicle and the charger.

Rapid charging an EV battery is not like plugging in your hedge clippers.

 I am posting these images from WDIV 4 news that did a segment on the difficulty of snuffing out these fires.

[StephenFord]

Big electricity infrastructure announcement for Northern Ireland, should keep the lights on for a wee bit longer! Only £20/year extra for customers, not bad...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-65372780

 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

26 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

Big electricity infrastructure announcement for Northern Ireland

I like the bit about creating 400 apprenticeships, too, very much in favour of those.

Another interesting development in the North Sea also:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12005753/Huge-North-Sea-cable-connecting-Britain-Netherlands-power-two-MILLION-homes.html

[Linds]

Another video from Stuart Fillingham, this one entitled "UK Government to force Car Makers to RESTRICT sale of new Petrol, Diesel and Hybrid cars from 2024".

Our politicians seem hellbent on diminishing whatever freedoms we have left as quickly as possible in order to get CO2 down from its current (massively high) level of 0.04% of the atmosphere ... incidentally every time they open their mouths to make a speech the air they expel has a CO2 content of about 4.00% ... now that's what I call TOXIC!!  Perhaps we should be prohibiting all politicians from speaking out loud by 2030 ... that'll make for a far more peaceful life and, into the bargain, will probably save the climate!

 

[StephenFord]

He makes the exact same point I made at the start of this thread. I have nothing against EVs, apart from the government intervention that is going to deprive us of choice of what we drive! If folk think EVs are great, well that's fine, but don't take away my choice of what I should drive. 

It's all about choice. In the same way I opted out of the government emergency alert  exercise, I had choice. I also have a very healthy cynicism of 'government'. Those that advocate a cashless society have no idea what they are voting for - just ask those Canadian truckers last year that had their bank accounts frozen because they chose to protest against government over lockdown rules.

Thank goodness I'm old, because I simply do not understand the world any longer. Freedom was something we use to cherish, now, people surrender it willingly, & just want to be led with no individual thought...

[Linds]

8 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

Thank goodness I'm old, because I simply do not understand the world any longer. Freedom was something we use to cherish, now, people surrender it willingly, & just want to be led with no individual thought...

As I was writing my silly little covering note I was thinking precisely along the above lines.  I'm only too pleased to be growing old.

[Scottman]

In America, people on Television are now openly saying that they believe that the government will bankrupt the economy in the pursuit of carbon neutrality. The cost is simply unimaginable and the return on investment is so far into the future that the term “generational” doesn’t seem to cover the timespan.

I think it’s an effort that is big enough to collapse modern economies because it is custom built to do exactly that.

[StephenFord]

When I was growing up in the 60s & 70s, I always had respect for government. I use to think they were intellectually my superior, and I didn't mind that, indeed I felt safe I was being looked after by 'clever' people. Now, the cloak of protection has firmly disappeared, and the realisation that those in government are often genuinely stupid, with virtually no common sense. Sad state of affairs really... 

[Scottman]

Oh, they definitely still want to “look after us”. Just not in a benign or benevolent way.

[Scottman]

Biden just announced, by recorded video, that he is going to campaign for the Presidency again. He stated that he intends to “Finnish the job”. 
given the terrible decisions that his administration has made, I must conclude that he is like a feeble minded hit man. If re-elected I imagine that they will double down on crushing the infrastructure that underpins the fossil fuel industry and then do nothing to rebuild the electrical generation and transmission infrastructure, while using printed money to incentivize the purchase of electric vehicles that will not have sufficient charging capability. It will be an unmitigated disaster for America.