Energy chat, the future of car propulsion

[Eric Bloodaxe]

From what I've seen of comments by German and other EU politicians, they were making a bit of a point with the synthetic fuel issue.

This was not that synthetic fuel is necessarily the answer, but that the EU should at least be looking at potential alternatives to BEVs which are, as most of us appreciate, far from a perfect solution in their present form.

It does seem that Tesla fan-boy Mr Shapps is unwilling to do this. And as Alex and Rick mention above, should the EU and mainland European motor industry come up with a carbon neutral non-BEV solution, is he going to deny it to UK customers because "we don't have to do what Europe does" and leave us out on a limb and/or reliant on Chinese manufacturers?

 

[StephenFord]

I feel too that one of the major issues we face, is that all our country's major decision makers are in London. Now, I lived in London for over a year and can confirm that getting round the city via public transport is a breeze (when not on strike). Buses every few minutes, links to the tube etc. These people then get indoctrinated into thinking that the whole country must be the same and they don't understand the reticent to 'battery' personal transport. 

I live rurally and have access to a few buses/day into Belfast. Millions of people are not swamped in public transport utopias, and car's are not a luxury, but a necessity. With the mileage many of us do, EVs are not practical right now, over 4 million UK drivers will have no access to their own EV charging station so will be totally reliant on public charging. 

I just think the government has rushed into this, though I'm confident that the closer 2030 hits, it'll be pushed further and further back as public opinion takes mass hold...

[alexp999]

My nearest bus stop is 2.5 miles away, which would require me to walk along a fast unlit country lane with no footpaths or verges. Not happening.

I live in a flat which while it has an allocated parking space, it isn't right outside my flat and I'm on the first floor. I hate to think of the cost of running a cable capable of charging a car down from my flat and across the shared driveway to my space, which has no wall near it so would need a post for the charger to sit on.

I know one of my neighbours had it costed up and all I know is that it was too expensive.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

Yes, I know we're all car enthusiasts on here but I do think that if public transport provision was plentiful, reliable, and affordable in all areas,  you'd have to ask yourself why bother with a car?

I'm very fortunate in that I have a bus stop literally at the end of my driveway which allows me to easily get to my nearest cities to the East and West (York and Leeds respectively) as well as out to the coast (Scarborough and Whitby, though the latter service is under threat at the moment). Now I have the Senior Pass my car use has dropped dramatically, at least in those directions - why sit in traffic, and then be ripped off for parking (if you can find anywhere)?

Unfortunately as we know not everyone lives in London or just happens to be lucky with a bus stop like me, but things could be different if the will was there.

 

[Scottman]

I would use Uber or Lyft for more than work related regional transportation. But, the cost of that has increased as everything has. 
I can see the merits of having a subscription to zip car or something like that. I tried it for a few months in 2018. Ann Arbor has a good selection of ways to get around and I am curious about how they could work out for me. By far the worst experience I’ve ever had with modes of transportation is on an E scooter! I can honestly say that I believe that SPIN is a scam. When I dug into their process I found it to be not very “Green” at all. The idea of a electric scooter that is unlocked through an app sounds great until you can’t get the app to close when you reach your destination and it keeps billing your account! They have control over the amount of money they make by not stopping the by minute billing! Turning on the application and riding away is easy! Then I learned that SPIN has crews roaming around the city in large Ford Transit vans collecting and distributing the scooters! They are all collected and charged in one central location and then dispersed every day. 
So, how green is three petrol Ford Transits running two shifts/ 16 hours a day? That scheme is an illusion of eco friendliness at best.

[unofix]

In the words of Norman Tebbit "Get on your bike......"

The man was clearly able to see the future and predict the coming of the infamous 'Boris Bike' 🤣

[Wino]

16 minutes ago, unofix said:

In the words of Norman Tebbit "Get on your bike......"

The man was clearly able to see the future and predict the coming of the infamous 'Boris Bike' 🤣

That poor bike 😉

[Scottman]

1 hour ago, unofix said:

In the words of Norman Tebbit "Get on your bike......"

The man was clearly able to see the future and predict the coming of the infamous 'Boris Bike' 🤣

I’m less concerned about seeing the future than I am with seeing large, heavy metal objects moving around that might kill me. Oh, and rain. I hate riding in the wet.

[iantt]

I hate riding unless it's got a minimum 800c noisey engine for propulsion. 

[iantt]

I have got a pushbike I bought second hand when I got a job that was other end of town to where I live. Still only used it on a nice day with no rain forecast. Been in shed unused since Jan 2017. 

[Scottman]

In the US our brilliant President has just signed an EO that directs the EPA to develop a new tailpipe emissions rule set for new combustion engine vehicles. We have not yet achieved a 6 percent acceptance rate for battery electric vehicles. The infrastructure is neither yet upgraded or even within half built out. But, the nation’s most powerful cabbage has determined that the industry must take the big leap to EV transition. I’m sure that the new regulations will be strict enough to force the industry to abandon the traditional vehicles. It’s not a done deal. But, it introduces the one thing that the auto industry does not need or want, regulatory instability.

the current administration is going to squeeze the industry into the transition as fast as possible. When government picks the winner’s and loser’s it is almost always a disaster.

[StephenFord]

11 minutes ago, Scottman said:

In the US our brilliant President has just signed an EO that directs the EPA to develop a new tailpipe emissions rule set for new combustion engine vehicles. We have not yet achieved a 6 percent acceptance rate for battery electric vehicles.

That's amazing! To think, that guy stayed awake long enough to sign a document like that LOL He's here tomorrow for the 25th anniversary of the Belfast Agreement, accompanied by over 500 people (security/press/medical etc) as an entourage, and a fleet of in excess of 25 vehicles, not one of which will do more than 18 Mpg  Still, the 'rules' of saving planet earth don't really apply to the rich & powerful, only us minions...

By the way, calling him a 'cabbage' is very insulting - I love cabbage!

[StephenFord]

The Belfast Telegraph carried yet another article on the lack of EV charging points in Northern Ireland. The one statistic that stood out for me was that here, we currently have 319 chargers run by ESB, the largest supplier whereas we have in excess of 5000 petrol pumps. Also bear in mind each one of those pumps need only be occupied for 5 minutes, as opposed to the hours of a charger.

Still some way to go before  the EV utopia is a reality...

[Eric Bloodaxe]

31 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

, we currently have 319 chargers run by ESB, the largest supplier whereas we have in excess of 5000 petrol pumps. Also bear in mind each one of those pumps need only be occupied for 5 minutes, as opposed to the hours of a charger.

Lol, I have fond memories of a lengthy "session" in London in the 80s with my opposite number from ESB, no idea how I managed to get to Kings Cross afterwards!

But I digress. A major issue to me, is where the chargers are located and I despair when I see them installed in normal filling stations as I've mentioned several times. 

It does need a change of mindset from just popping out primarily to fill the car up, to "filling" it while you're parked up for another reason, such as shopping, which can take up the 40 minutes plus required.

We are woefully short of the number of chargers required to make BEVs viable for most of the population, and the cost of infrastructure seems to be greatly underestimated.

I've watched the comings and goings at various sites where "rapid" chargers have been installed lately. Generally the local electricity distribution company are along first, to beef up the local network which often involves disruption. Then substantial groundworks take place in the site itself to install transformers, cabling, control gear and the chargers themselves. Not a simple job at all! 

The government strategy (if you can call it that) seems to be to leave it to charging network operators, but they make the quite reasonable point that they'll only do that as and when they can see the possibility of a return on the investment at a particular site.

All this in addition to the point that there is still no easy way to pay (e.g. by contactless card) at many chargers which still use a plethora of apps and/or RFID cards, despite repeated government pledges to sort this out.

Then we have connectors. Some chargers have tethered cables/connectors, many don't. So you need to have your own stashed in the car. We still don't have a standard charging socket - imagine if BP, Tesco, Shell, Asda, Sainsbury's, etc, etc all had different size nozzles. Some people are still baffled by different ones for petrol and diesel!

 

 

 

[Scottman]

All true and applicable to America as well! There is some discussion in the media regarding the age and lack of capacity of our electrical grid and generating capability (Real, sustainable generating capacity, not wind/ solar intermittent power) but all of that talk is evidently not interesting enough for the audience that is the intended target of the proposed project. It’s just not very clear to most people who are even marginally aware or interested that they are no where near either the capability or the level of adoption that is required to have the scheme not collapse the entire system and the industry! It’s madness.

[StephenFord]

2 minutes ago, Scottman said:

All true and applicable to America as well! ...

That is just an anathema to me. America is the quintessential land of the car, freedom of the road, driving wherever it leads. As a teenager, I remember fondly driving from Detroit to Las Angeles, a 3000 mile trip I can't simply even imagine attempting in an EV! I even did the Pacific Coast Highway a few years later, again, how would you enjoy that in an EV. I am relying on the USA to restore world order on this issue! I have every confidence in you - you can drive to Walmart and buy guns 

[Scottman]

I understand fully! I have driven from Michigan to L.A. multiple times and routes depending upon the weather and my time constraints. 
driving from Michigan to New York or the east coast is a totally different experience. Toll roads and traffic congestion along with a much more constricted landscape make it less appealing to me as a destination. If given my choice, I would never visit New York City or New York and New Jersey ever again. 
LA is very ratty, SanFrancisco is an open sewer with a nice view of the bay. But New York still has them both clearly beaten due it’s enthusiastic embrace of the dystopian hellscape that they are feverishly working to expand upon each day. I think that explains my sentiments about as fully as possible regarding NYC.

all of you reading this need look no further than YouTube to see what I am talking about! There are also many videos on the abandonment of the middle of America. Wonderful small towns that have been hollowed out by the outsourcing of industry. I would like to see if the brilliant elites intend to make the infrastructure upgrades to the outlying areas that would enable us to have a “zero emission” EV? My guess is not likely.

 

[Scottman]

Please don’t rely upon America to sort out the agenda of your current leadership agenda. You must become very vocal! Probably should back it up with a high level of disagreeable behavior. That’s what I believe is going to happen here. America is not a monolithic entity. The coastal elites has been waging an undeclared war on the middle of the country for around thirty years now. I wouldn’t have said that a decade ago. But the results of the decision makers have been compounding with no correction. 
I believe that the coastal regions are going to pursue a high tax rate and development of a governmental hive mentality. In opposition, the limited government States that has seen the degradation of the constitution and rule of law will have a reaction to the increased intrusion of the federal government into the area of state control. This may become ugly. You can get a good view of the potential for trouble when you look at the videos and discussion about the federal government refusing to protect the borders. The border states get no protection and are being invaded with the feds looking on and saying that they see no problem. The government is waging war most intently on the border states. We should be upgrading our power infrastructure but we are buying food and motel rooms for non citizens instead. I am not exaggerating the situation.

[StephenFord]

47 minutes ago, Scottman said:

...We should be upgrading our power infrastructure but we are buying food and motel rooms for non citizens instead. I am not exaggerating the situation.

mmm... you'd never catch the UK doing that! 

[Scottman]

To the boats! Says the French immigrants. It’s not a problem. Plenty of room and jobs for everyone! Including the people who cannot speak English nor have any desire to learn or assimilate. Right then!

[StephenFord]

1 minute ago, Scottman said:

To the boats! Says the French immigrants. It’s not a problem. Plenty of room and jobs for everyone! Including the people who cannot speak English nor have any desire to learn or assimilate. Right then!

LOL, hey buddy, we better get back on track with 'energy', don't want the thread locked down again! 

[Scottman]

It’s connected to the EV adoption subject. Because it’s burning up the money that should be going to the infrastructure upgrades and changes required for a green future. But, it’s not the only impediment by any means.

I am speaking primarily to the situation in the States. But you don’t have to scratch very deeply into the whole situation to find an amazing amount of similarities.

[unofix]

1 hour ago, StephenFord said:

hey buddy, we better get back on track with 'energy', don't want the thread locked down again! 

Easter is over, there will be no Hot Cross Buns till next year now 😉

[StephenFord]

Was just chatting to my 'american' uncle who was extolling the virtues of my aunt's new car, a 2023  Chevrolet Trailblazer.  It has a 1.3 4 x cylinder engine, and on a recent trip to my cousins, they needed one single 5 minute refill stop in a 600 mile drive. We both conversed about the woes of EVs. With 2 x 'drivers' sharing the load, made good time too, something an EV won't manage. I still can't see USA embracing EV as mass personal transport...

[unofix]

 

1 hour ago, StephenFord said:

It has a 1.3 4 x cylinder engine, and on a recent trip to my cousins, they needed one single 5 minute refill stop in a 600 mile drive.

and projecting this post 10 years in to the the future it will read something like ....

It has a 1.5V x 400 battery pack, and on a recent trip to my cousins, they needed only 5 one hour stops to recharge in a 600 mile drive. 🤔

That's progress for you 🤣