33 minutes ago, custom driver said:

So as you know took vacuum pump out tried line the exhaust cam up and it only turns once backwards and once forward after that it locks up, but before it was turning over with the previous belt on as had to time it up 

Did you try to turn it more than once either way before?

 

I've found a thread with exactly the same fault this morning.  Says the rockers on that one were damaged.  Although the valves were ok.  You'd have to remove the full camshaft assembly to check the rockers underneath.

Ford Transit Forum • View topic - MK8 Eco blue vacuum pump siezed ? Need help

47 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Did you try to turn it more than once either way before?

 

I've found a thread with exactly the same fault this morning.  Says the rockers on that one were damaged.  Although the valves were ok.  You'd have to remove the full camshaft assembly to check the rockers underneath.

Ford Transit Forum • View topic - MK8 Eco blue vacuum pump siezed ? Need help

I turned the crank shaft to line everything up, 1 minute the exhaust cam was lined up so kept turning until crank shaft was lined up and inlet was but then once it was it became clear the exhaust timing was of, so the cams have been turning ok as they have been going past the lining up marks 🙆🙆🤦 just going take cam case of and have a look, Is it just a cam case i would need does that come with everything? Obviously apart from valve's 

9 minutes ago, custom driver said:

I turned the crank shaft to line everything up, 1 minute the exhaust cam was lined up so kept turning until crank shaft was lined up and inlet was but then once it was it became clear the exhaust timing was of, so the cams have been turning ok as they have been going past the lining up marks 🙆🙆🤦 just going take cam case of and have a look, Is it just a cam case i would need does that come with everything? Obviously apart from valve's 

Rockers are separate from the cam case.  You can choose whether to replace all 16 of those.  Or only the broken ones.

Also check whether a new cam case comes with a new gasket.  if not, you will need to buy a new gasket separately.

Gasket - CAMSHAFT CARRIER GASKET FOR TRANSIT MK8 CUSTOM 2.0 ECOBLUE 2016 ONWARDS 2100953 | eBay UK

Full set of rockers - SET OF 16 ROCKERS TAPPETS FOR FORD KUGA FOCUS RANGER TRANSIT 2.0 ECOBLUE 2016 ON | eBay UK

3 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Gasket - CAMSHAFT CARRIER GASKET FOR TRANSIT MK8 CUSTOM 2.0 ECOBLUE 2016 ONWARDS 2100953 | eBay UK

Full set of rockers - SET OF 16 ROCKERS TAPPETS FOR FORD KUGA FOCUS RANGER TRANSIT 2.0 ECOBLUE 2016 ON | eBay UK

So cam case and both of these? 

10 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Rockers are separate from the cam case.  You can choose whether to replace all 16 of those.  Or only the broken ones.

Also check whether a new cam case comes with a new gasket.  if not, you will need to buy a new gasket separately.

Okay thanks 🤦 sorry this comment just came through didn't show, Is it easy to install rockers?

5 minutes ago, custom driver said:

So cam case and both of these? 

Not necessarily.  The cam case might come with a new gasket, so you'd need to check that first.

And that link is for a full set of 16 rockers.  They are available individually if you only need to replace a few of them.  We won't know how many are broken until you remove the old cam case.

While we're on a parts list, you'll also need a new gasket for the new vac pump.  Again, check whether your new pump comes with a new gasket before buying a separate one.

2 minutes ago, custom driver said:

Okay thanks 🤦 sorry this comment just came through didn't show, Is it easy to install rockers?

Lol, no worries.

Yeah, rockers are the easy part.  They literally just lift out and drop back in.

21 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Lol, no worries.

Yeah, rockers are the easy part.  They literally just lift out and drop back in.

Perfect! Do you have lubicate them or anything or simply pull out and drop new ones in? Cant believe the damage and trouble this has caused, i was started for about 10 seconds just to move it forward probs couple inches its crazy 

6 minutes ago, custom driver said:

Perfect! Do you have lubicate them or anything or simply pull out and drop new ones in? Cant believe the damage and trouble this has caused, i was started for about 10 seconds just to move it forward probs couple inches its crazy 

Opinions vary on that.  Some people suggest soaking them in oil first but personally I don't.

I would use assembly lube on both the rockers and cams just so they don't run dry when you first turn it over.

You're welcome to double check that with the parts supplier or an engine specialist as well.

 

Yeah, I never expected this much damage or hassle from your first non-start post.  Have to admire your perseverance tbh.  Not sure I'd have had the patience haha!

3 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

Opinions vary on that.  Some people suggest soaking them in oil first but personally I don't.

I would use assembly lube on both the rockers and cams just so they don't run dry when you first turn it over.

You're welcome to double check that with the parts supplier or an engine specialist as well.

 

Yeah, I never expected this much damage or hassle from your first non-start post.  Have to admire your perseverance tbh.  Not sure I'd have had the patience haha!

let’s say only 3 rockers are damaged would u just do the 3 or the whole lot? Also would u buy second hand cam case

1 hour ago, custom driver said:

let’s say only 3 rockers are damaged would u just do the 3 or the whole lot? Also would u buy second hand cam case

Really depends on what you're doing with the van after it's fixed.

If you intend to keep it for years and need it reliable for work etc then it makes sense just to buy all new parts now as you'll get the use out of them.

My concern with only doing a few rockers is that maybe one looks fine now but turns out to be weakened and then fails after a week or two.  Then you're back to square one.  But saying that, I do also understand the full set is a lot of money to spend on a 10 year old van.

If you can be sure a used cam case came from a running engine then that should be fine.  Not sure I'd trust one that's just loose at a breakers yard with no history though.

I really don't envy your decision on this.  Will come down to your personal circumstances and finances.  Obviously you've already spent a bit of money and a lot of time on it.

2 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

Really depends on what you're doing with the van after it's fixed.

If you intend to keep it for years and need it reliable for work etc then it makes sense just to buy all new parts now as you'll get the use out of them.

My concern with only doing a few rockers is that maybe one looks fine now but turns out to be weakened and then fails after a week or two.  Then you're back to square one.  But saying that, I do also understand the full set is a lot of money to spend on a 10 year old van.

If you can be sure a used cam case came from a running engine then that should be fine.  Not sure I'd trust one that's just loose at a breakers yard with no history though.

I really don't envy your decision on this.  Will come down to your personal circumstances and finances.  Obviously you've already spent a bit of money and a lot of time on it.

Well took the cam case of mate, the cam seems very slight and mean slight tightness when spinning but regards the  rockers there is none broken and the cam seems ok 

2 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

Really depends on what you're doing with the van after it's fixed.

If you intend to keep it for years and need it reliable for work etc then it makes sense just to buy all new parts now as you'll get the use out of them.

My concern with only doing a few rockers is that maybe one looks fine now but turns out to be weakened and then fails after a week or two.  Then you're back to square one.  But saying that, I do also understand the full set is a lot of money to spend on a 10 year old van.

If you can be sure a used cam case came from a running engine then that should be fine.  Not sure I'd trust one that's just loose at a breakers yard with no history though.

I really don't envy your decision on this.  Will come down to your personal circumstances and finances.  Obviously you've already spent a bit of money and a lot of time on it.

Dunno what i'm looking at for spun cam also if i turn it over again by hand will that tell me if its lower damage locking up?

Is the middle valve on this picture higher up than the other two?  Or is that just on the photo?

If the outer two are lower then they're bent and stuck down in the chamber at least partially.  

 

You probably won't see a spun cam lobe by eye.  If both the camshafts are identical then line them up perfectly and check that each cam lobe matches as you rotate the two cams together.  (On some engines the lobes are not cast onto the shaft.  They are only push fit, so can move (spin) if they come up against an immoveable force like a piston against a valve.  So that is what you're looking for.)

11 hours ago, custom driver said:

also if i turn it over again by hand will that tell me if its lower damage locking up?

Maybe...

If a valve is stuck right open, then the piston will hit it if you rotate the crank now.  You may also see the top of the valve and the rocker 'shake' slightly as they get hit by the piston.  However, if the valves are only stuck down slightly, that might not be enough to hit the piston, so not a 100% failsafe test.

3 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

Is the middle valve on this picture higher up than the other two?  Or is that just on the photo?

If the outer two are lower then they're bent and stuck down in the chamber at least partially.  

 

You probably won't see a spun cam lobe by eye.  If both the camshafts are identical then line them up perfectly and check that each cam lobe matches as you rotate the two cams together.  (On some engines the lobes are not cast onto the shaft.  They are only push fit, so can move (spin) if they come up against an immoveable force like a piston against a valve.  So that is what you're looking for.)

Think it's the picture, so if any valves are higher then thats the problem? ill go and check to see if there is any that are higher? But i've got a good question now 🤣 rite so, lets start from the beginning?

Took cam cover of and noticed the difference between the 2 cams offset, so i turned and turned that crank until got lined up thats with the pink marks and cranking locking tool and it was ok it was turning ok? 

 

Is it hard to do valves? Also how can u tell for broken rockers? Should they wiggle when in the position or not 

 

5 minutes ago, custom driver said:

Think it's the picture, so if any valves are higher then thats the problem? ill go and check to see if there is any that are higher? But i've got a good question now 🤣 rite so, lets start from the beginning?

Took cam cover of and noticed the difference between the 2 cams offset, so i turned and turned that crank until got lined up thats with the pink marks and cranking locking tool and it was ok it was turning ok? 

 

Is it hard to do valves? Also how can u tell for broken rockers? Should they wiggle when in the position or not 

 

If any valves are lower, those are the problem.  The springs should pull the valves all back up to full height.  If any are still low, the valve stem is bent so the valve can't be pulled all the way up through the thin guide tube to full height.

Valves are pretty much the hardest job to do.  You'd have to remove the whole cylinder head first.  That means new headgasket, manifold gaskets and new headbolts as well as valves and all the other parts.  Valves can be changed at home but everything needs to be clean and precise so this is a job I'd leave to a machine shop myself, I just don't have the right space to do it at home.  The machine shop can pressure test the head to make sure it is all good before refitting.  But that will cost you another few hundred quid.  It's getting to the point where you might be better off just fitting a good used engine instead of continuing with this one.  (I haven't checked prices for used engines lately though).

Rockers will have a bit of movement in them.  It should be fairly obvious if any are cracked or bent though.  Usually they break so badly that all the needle rollers fall out of that shiny ring, but we know that didn't happen in this case as they would have dropped into the sump.

9 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

If any valves are lower, those are the problem.  The springs should pull the valves all back up to full height.  If any are still low, the valve stem is bent so the valve can't be pulled all the way up through the thin guide tube to full height.

Valves are pretty much the hardest job to do.  You'd have to remove the whole cylinder head first.  That means new headgasket, manifold gaskets and new headbolts as well as valves and all the other parts.  Valves can be changed at home but everything needs to be clean and precise so this is a job I'd leave to a machine shop myself, I just don't have the right space to do it at home.  The machine shop can pressure test the head to make sure it is all good before refitting.  But that will cost you another few hundred quid.  It's getting to the point where you might be better off just fitting a good used engine instead of continuing with this one.  (I haven't checked prices for used engines lately though).

Rockers will have a bit of movement in them.  It should be fairly obvious if any are cracked or bent though.  Usually they break so badly that all the needle rollers fall out of that shiny ring, but we know that didn't happen in this case as they would have dropped into the sump.

Im stuck here now as i'm not sure where the damage is or how to check, Apart from checking the valves what else to do? Engines are 2.5 + that wont be happening then fitting aswell, would u buy new rockers new cam case and time it up and see whats what?

1 hour ago, custom driver said:

Im stuck here now as i'm not sure where the damage is or how to check, Apart from checking the valves what else to do? Engines are 2.5 + that wont be happening then fitting aswell, would u buy new rockers new cam case and time it up and see whats what?

Can't properly check for valve damage without removing the cylinder head unfortunately.  If any of the valves look lower from the top then that's a fair sign to suggest they're bent but not 100%.

If valves hit pistons and the engine was locking then something must be damaged somewhere.  I still can't see any damage so far though.  Was expecting to see at least one rocker clearly broken.

You won't like this but I wouldn't trust this engine enough now to fit a new cam case and vac pump.  Feels like too much risk when we still haven't seen the part that's locking the engine even with the vac pump off.

If you just want to try the cheapest option from this point, without removing the cylinder head to check valves, then I would suggest sourcing a cam case and vac pump from a known good used engine as cheaply as possible.  Can also take the rockers from the same engine if you want.  Buy new gaskets for cam cover and vac pump.  Fit that lot and the belt and then just hope for the best. 

But I can't stress enough that is a massive risk.  If any valves are damaged then it still won't run after all that work/cost/time.  Then you'll either have to remove everything again in order to access the cylinder head.  Or fit a complete new engine.  Those will be the only two options at that point.  (Or cut your losses and scrap it is third option).

5 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

Can't properly check for valve damage without removing the cylinder head unfortunately.  If any of the valves look lower from the top then that's a fair sign to suggest they're bent but not 100%.

If valves hit pistons and the engine was locking then something must be damaged somewhere.  I still can't see any damage so far though.  Was expecting to see at least one rocker clearly broken.

You won't like this but I wouldn't trust this engine enough now to fit a new cam case and vac pump.  Feels like too much risk when we still haven't seen the part that's locking the engine even with the vac pump off.

If you just want to try the cheapest option from this point, without removing the cylinder head to check valves, then I would suggest sourcing a cam case and vac pump from a known good used engine as cheaply as possible.  Can also take the rockers from the same engine if you want.  Buy new gaskets for cam cover and vac pump.  Fit that lot and the belt and then just hope for the best. 

But I can't stress enough that is a massive risk.  If any valves are damaged then it still won't run after all that work/cost/time.  Then you'll either have to remove everything again in order to access the cylinder head.  Or fit a complete new engine.  Those will be the only two options at that point.  (Or cut your losses and scrap it is third option).

Few people have said its defo spun a lobe? There saying there weak as and just spin, they said line my cams up and seem the position they cams are sitting at the new ones, is there anyway to check for spun cam lobes

12 hours ago, custom driver said:

Few people have said its defo spun a lobe? There saying there weak as and just spin, they said line my cams up and seem the position they cams are sitting at the new ones, is there anyway to check for spun cam lobes

I did cover this is an earlier post.  It's not easy to see if the lobes have spun just by eye.  In fact it's pretty much impossible on a single cam engine like the 1.6 TDCI, where they do spin quite often.

But as your engine is twin cam there might be a way to do it.  Line up the cams perfectly so that the top lobe matches the same direction on both cams.  (For example, both lobes facing forward, not timed with timing pins).  Then look at every other cam lobe down the shaft.  If the shafts are identical then every lobe should be in the same direction on both cams.  If one or more lobes on the exhaust cam don't match, then that would prove they've spun.

Obviously if nearly all of them don't match then that probably means the shafts were different to start with, so you would need to match your exhaust cam against a new exhaust cam if that is the case.

3 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

I did cover this is an earlier post.  It's not easy to see if the lobes have spun just by eye.  In fact it's pretty much impossible on a single cam engine like the 1.6 TDCI, where they do spin quite often.

But as your engine is twin cam there might be a way to do it.  Line up the cams perfectly so that the top lobe matches the same direction on both cams.  (For example, both lobes facing forward, not timed with timing pins).  Then look at every other cam lobe down the shaft.  If the shafts are identical then every lobe should be in the same direction on both cams.  If one or more lobes on the exhaust cam don't match, then that would prove they've spun.

Obviously if nearly all of them don't match then that probably means the shafts were different to start with, so you would need to match your exhaust cam against a new exhaust cam if that is the case.

Ok will check that soon mate, i've had someone say this to me, i mean i'm getting all sorts said dunno what ***** believe

 

Ye that’s not how it works buddy you needed to turn it over until it all lined up takes 13 turns that’s why when you’ve fitted it they say to turn it over by hand 13 times to make sure it lines back up and nothing hits you can’t just turn one cam as it’s an interference engine so valves hit pistons this is why it locks up when your trying to turn it over so now you need to turn the bottom end over one turn then do left cam and then right if i remember correctly

 

 

That correct

 

5 minutes ago, custom driver said:

Ok will check that soon mate, i've had someone say this to me, i mean i'm getting all sorts said dunno what ***** believe

 

Ye that’s not how it works buddy you needed to turn it over until it all lined up takes 13 turns that’s why when you’ve fitted it they say to turn it over by hand 13 times to make sure it lines back up and nothing hits you can’t just turn one cam as it’s an interference engine so valves hit pistons this is why it locks up when your trying to turn it over so now you need to turn the bottom end over one turn then do left cam and then right if i remember correctly

 

 

That correct

 

If that is true then it's specific to this engine.  I haven't heard of that before.

The camshaft pulleys are exactly double the size of the crankshaft pulley.  So it takes two crank rotations to bring the cams one full circle. 

13 turns must be about lining up the extra gear on these (with white marks).  But it would have to be an even number to make cam & crank sync.  So must be 12 or 14 rather than 13.  I'll do some research on this myself now.  Maybe @iantt can tell us what we're missing here.

 

 

34 minutes ago, custom driver said:

Ok will check that soon mate, i've had someone say this to me, i mean i'm getting all sorts said dunno what ***** believe

 

Ye that’s not how it works buddy you needed to turn it over until it all lined up takes 13 turns that’s why when you’ve fitted it they say to turn it over by hand 13 times to make sure it lines back up and nothing hits you can’t just turn one cam as it’s an interference engine so valves hit pistons this is why it locks up when your trying to turn it over so now you need to turn the bottom end over one turn then do left cam and then right if i remember correctly

 

 

That correct

 

Have a look through this belt guide link.  Looks like it is every 14th rotation.  (Though I'm still not sure why).

2.0 EcoBlue Belt_Instructions.pdf

 

 

Edit - Sealey guide here as well.

Sealey 2.0 EcoBlue Timing Belt_pdf.php