Insurance...-.- Biggest Scam Going. Any Tips?

[London's Finest]

Fuming and irritated. How can insurance companies scam people so badly and legally??

For me, an 18 year old its impossible for me to find an insurance quote even worth looking at..

Option 1:

Black box.

Out of all my friends that have used this, its not paid off at all for any of them and its unrealistic and impossible to remain in the green zone if you commute to college as you're out and about during rush hour. You're constantly starting, stopping and darting in and out of traffic. As a result, the G meter in their black boxes go mental and all of their premiums have gone up.

The box measures what time of day you go out, what speed you're doing, how smooth you drive, ( braking, accelerating and cornering), how many miles you do and they monitor your exact location at any given point..

So wait...

What am I supposed to do if someone runs into the road? do they expect me to carry on driving smoothly at their expected 28/30mph.. Its ridiculous, it makes me question whether they'd rather I ran people over and remained in the 'green zone' than prevent risking my insurance going up (due to harsh braking). This is so stupid its unreal.

Most of these guys have the nerve to order me about and tell me when I can and cannot drive my OWN car when I'm having to pay them between £1300-£1400 pounds.

Anyone see the irony here? I am paying their wages and effectively 2x what the car is worth and they're telling me how much I can drive, when I can or cannot drive..and I have to ask their permission for pretty much everything.

I cant believe that this is actually happening..

The box itself is flawed, It records how many miles I do, which routes I use and when I drive my car, if for some reason my annual mileage increases, my insurance premiums will either increase or I will receive a penalty.

If I stall my car, or 'bunny hop' it will mess with the super sensitive G meters and trigger dangerous driving..I just do not have time for this.

There's more:

If I want to cancel they'll charge me 200 quid for fitting the box and even if I finish my annual insurance and want the box taken off, most insurers charge £90 for the privilege.

Option 2:

Go without the black box and write off the car 2.5x-3x a year before even crashing it.

Simple solution is to fit a go pro, I'd even fit it and cover the cost myself. This is why black boxing is a blatant scam. They don't care whether I braked, swerved or broke the speed limit in order to drive safely and prevent an accident. They just want as much of my money as possible.

Rant over:

I've been using price comparison sites, can any of you help me? Are there any independent or specialised insurance companies you know of?

Do you know any companies that use black boxes but do not go full dictator on you?

[DAN@ADRIAN FLUX]

Hi,

We have an insurer that uses a Smartbox rather than a black box.

This just records your annual mileage, not how or when you drive. Which means as long as you do not exceed your annual mileage there is no penalty or increase in premium.

If you wanted to PM me your details I can arrange for our quotes team to give you a call to see what we can offer.

Kind regards

Dan.

[Ianb]

Best of luck getting insurance, btw, if your parents have no claims and no convictions, stick them on the insurance, that helps...

Also do something like pass plus, that's also helps bring things down a bit.

I'll play the devils advocate here..

I know what you're saying about the black box, and I agree it's fairly flawed with your examples, but perhaps as a new driver you shouldn't be nipping, in and out of traffic.

Rush hour isn't fun, that is true, but easing your way around traffic is always easier than darting in and out..

Stalling, well yes, I understand that could jar the gyros a bit, but I'm sure they allow for things like that...

Jumping on the brakes when someone runs out into traffic.. Two ways to look at this:

1) you did hazard perception test right? In theory, the argument would be you shouldn't need to slam on the brakes because you are aware of the hazards...

2) as you said, stick a camera in the car and keep bombarding the insurance company with videos to explain why you stopped quickly etc...

Of course I feel sorry for you guys coming into the driving world, it was expensive when I started and that was less than 10 years ago...

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[Phil 87]

Yes I feel sorry for you having to pay so much for insurance, luckily for me I didn't get my first car until I was 21 so the premiums weren't so bad. Ian is right about adding parents to your policy and pass plus, but beyond that there's not much you can do.

I don't know how the black box data affects your premium, but it would be unfair of them to increase the premium beyond what it would be if you didn't have the box - that would defeat the purpose of the box. I think if they decide to increase your premium based on black box data, they should give you a full report of where and when your driving showed you are at risk of having an accident. Then if you had a dashcam you could show them that actually, you just stalled or some idiot ran out in front of you without warning. That's wishful thinking of course. I bet the only reason they introduced the black boxes is because there's money to be made from them, or are they subsidised by the government?

[ifoundmyalloys]

My mate has one of these black boxes (3rd year now.)

Firstly, after his 1st year of having it, his premiums weren't much lower than "standard" insurance.

Secondly, everyone he's told has taking the mick out of him for it due to the way his insurer works.

It's like you said, he works on a traffic light system. If it's all green, it's all good. If he gets amber (probably minor things like stalling or not changing up due to a steep hill) he gets a nice letter in the mail with them wagging their finger at him.

If he dares go into the red (happened once iirc when we were doing overtime and he drove home at 11pm!!!) He got a more serious letter explaining if he continues to drive at that time then they will have no option but to lower his mileage (which was already low) and increase his premium to reflect his driving.

Maybe (big maybe) it's good for the first year until you get 1ncb under your belt. For anything more than a year? It'd probably be cheaper to insure a paraplegic on a motorbike...

[StevenST13]

I know this isn't always practical but the newer the car is the less it costs to insure as well. I'd always advise young drivers to save and save to get the newest car they possibly can. As these cars don't have the years and years of statistics attached to them than insurance company's wrongly use to quote there prices. For instance my brother inlaw has a v reg corsa £1400 a year 2 years no claims. His mate saved and saved go a 12plate Suzuki swift £928 with no no claims.

[alexp999]

I think with a newer car they also consider that you are likely to drive more carefully as you have saved and spent your money on something of higher value.

[luke.grimbley]

Insurance is a scam full stop. Legally required so they can charge unreasonable prices and we have to pay it. Since i started driving if i add up all my policies for the past 3 years I have paid out £4500. I'd like to see that cost justified considering i have never had an accident, made a claim or have any convictions.

[Ianb]

Right... Off to try and convince my fiancée that I need a new car in order to save money on insurance...

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[London's Finest]

Thanks for all the input guys, and insurance does take the mic. I've had to accept it and have chosen a black-box insurer, will let you know how it goes :/.

Now..I'm not one for praising the Americans..but their system is pretty good. My mate recently moved to Washington and the lucky sod pays $150 to insure his 3.0 twin-turbo BMW. Only catch, his insurance will rise to a eye-watering $800 if he writes his car off..( So he says...) anyway lets assume this is true, which means $800 or (£530 in Queen's English to you and me ;)).

I have given the whole insurance thing a deep thought and tried everything I could. Yes...a 58/59 plate fiesta 1.25 would cost me £950 to insure however the car itself would cost me atleast £3000 to buy...so its not economical especially when you take depreciation into count...Or I could try NFU mutual, paying £800 to insure a rusty series 3 diesel Landrover (thank god I have a soul and would prefer eating paint than drive one of those..), one of my mates done this and his car breaks down a lot and he's managed to write the thing off by rolling it over.

"You shouldn't be driving in traffic":

The whole point of me driving is to have freedom and ditch the hateful, smelly, germ-infested busses, and unfortunately my college hours coincide with rush hour i.e. 7:45-8:30 morning rush and 4:10- 5:00pm. The first day I took the car out was when I was driving the car out of the mot centre and driving through 5pm town center rush hour traffic in one way systems that I had never used before, I had to move in and out of traffic and I drove home fine.

The black box system according to friends of mine who have them:

A week or so before the review period (which decides whether you get money back based on your driving or get charged more) the box becomes super sensitive, so for example my mates been on greens through out his 3 month period but a week before he was getting ambers. He hadn't changed his driving style or speed or braking patterns..The were penalising him on things like 31/30mph and braking and driving smoothly..so instead of his £70 he was entitled to. He received £30.

"Hazard perception is there for a reason":

Yes, if anyone believes in the theory of hazard perception tests (referring to most of these insurers) being the lone factor which can prevent drivers from having to slam their brakes on for unpredictable people running into the middle of the road is either naive or clearly not used to town driving because if you've never had to emergency stop on a main road because someone has pulled into your path then I envy you.

[Ianb]

Don't get me wrong, I'm aware of driving in towns and hazard perception, but the point I'm trying to make is that if you're driving in a town during traffic scenarios, you shouldn't be driving in a manner that requires 'slamming on the brakes'... I've had people pull out in front of me, but generally in traffic/town scenarios, I'm not going fast enough to require severe evasive action...

You mentioned something about 31/30mph... Are you referring to driving 31 in a 30 zone? The "10%" or not that you're supposedly allowed doesn't matter, above 30 in a 30 zone, whether it's 31 or 91 it is still against the law... So having a bit of a moan because you could get punished for breaking the law is a bit daft...

Actually, I believe UAE has the best insurance system, you insure the vehicle, not the person... So you pay x amount and that car is insured, no matter who drives it.

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[London's Finest]

I am aware that 31/30mph in a 30 zone is breaking the law, and im sure you probably never exceed the limit ;)Sometimes speed creeps up due to declines etc and I know for a fact that when im driving im not constantly staring at my speedo..as I've got other priorities..i.e. the traffic infront of me.

What I don't like..is that,they will try to make money off you any way possible. Like marking you down if you don't shift up when going up hills etc..

My point is that, they pull cunning tactics like this towards the end of the review period inorder to cash in at the motorists expense.

[Ianb]

I know what you're saying and I agree that they're looking for ways to shaft you... The point I'm trying to make is that this is not about me... I've got more than a handful of no claims, so my insurance is around the £250 (ish) mark, for fully comp, protected no claims etc..and I don't have a black box watching my driving, so if I creep over the limit, I just need to keep my eyes out for Clive...

Please don't think I'm being a 'holier than thou' person..in reality I'm playing devils advocate (have I said that already?)... There are a few times when speed limits are potentially exceeded:

- heading down hills.

- overtaking a 50mph driver in a 60 zone, one might end up doing over 60 in order to get passed quickly (then returning to 60)..

- I've also known someone to have an emergency vehicle come up behind them with no where to tuck in and let them passed, so he put his foot down until there was a place for a safe overtake...

HOWEVER... You always have to remember that in all of the above, they're all (afaik) illegal...

So whilst everything was being down with the best intentions, an early driver has to be extra careful... Just like you were in your driving test, you probably drove in your test with far more 'technical correctness' than I do in standard driving, but that is because you were being watched, and I suppose you have to do exactly the same whilst you continue.

Also, keep in mind that you are only allowed 6 points for your first 2 years if driving, so you're sort of on 'probation' anyway. What I'm getting at is, statistically, you're very likely to have a smash soon.. So do yourself a favour and try and drive like you did in your driving test for as long as possible until you become 'just another driver' and then by then you'll be able to enjoy all the freedom you want, and you won't have smashed anything (hopefully).

I know it's hard for you guys..

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[FocusSmudge]

Passed my test at 20. First car was a MK1, 1.6 Focus Estate and paid just under £800 for insurance. Both parents on policy with no black box.

Second year changed to a MK2 1.6 Focus Hatch and renewal was £500. Changed to a 1.8TDCi MK2 Estate and paid no extra.

All my mates paid in excess of £1500 for cars with smaller and larger engine sizes.

Got lucky I guess B)

[bensambrook]

What you have to remember is everyone else is or has been in the same situation. So it's a case of suck it up and get on with it or stick to public transport until you're a bit older and the insurance may be cheaper.

[jeebowhite]

Been there done that, the best answer is take your full budget for a car - if thats £5k, then take a car of 2006 onwards and run quotes on it. The lower the insurance group the better. Anything you can do to increase the cars security should be done. Then take the car budget and subtract the insurance from the budget, and just find your car with any radius, making sure you have money left over for any repairs.

The newer the car the better, get a high miler if necessary, as its had a lot of work done to it, and even if its been under a lot of stress, as a first car its a great way to get a new enough car that keeps the insurers happy and you a good enough car for a low price.

[Phil 87]

- I've also known someone to have an emergency vehicle come up behind them with no where to tuck in and let them passed, so he put his foot down until there was a place for a safe overtake...

I hope that wasn't a police car, they would have thought he was a criminal and trying to get away lol.

[jeebowhite]

Done that, the police thankfully realised the situation I was doing about 45 in a 30 zone down a one way Street, got to the end and through the cat out their way as they indicated to turn right so I indicated and swung left, got a raised hand thanks for that one lol

[Ianb]

Done that, the police thankfully realised the situation I was doing about 45 in a 30 zone down a one way Street, got to the end and through the cat out their way as they indicated to turn right so I indicated and swung left, got a raised hand thanks for that one lol

It was an ambo in the situation I know... I would never do it with a police car...Knowing my luck they'd probably be coming after me anyway.. I'd be there on road wars or police interceptors trying to explain how I thought I was doing them a favour by speeding off when they were behind...

"Didn't you think it was strange that we were behind you for 4 miles?"

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[Phil 87]

There's a fine line between failing to stop and failing to get the out of the way lol.

[thatfiestaguy]

Thought i'd chip in with my two cents here....

I passed my test in January 2013, by the 6th February 2013 i'd completed pass plus and achieved Exceeded (Highest of the three tiers).

My first car was a 52 reg 1.2 Renault Clio which I paid about £1,100 for, the first year's FC (or comprehensive) insurance was £1,100.

Second year was £595 FC.

Third year was still going to cost about £565 (Hardly much of a saving is it over the year's period?)

As you'll read below, I ended up getting a new car the day after my third year of insurance started.

Both of these years were done on an Admiral multi-car policy.

Admiral didn't recognise my pass plus qualification, but it worked out cheaper to go with them than another insurer who did accept, or "recognise" pass plus, (£1,100 vs about £3,400 with pass plus, CRAZY!!)

I drove this for about 2.5 years until the Saturday just gone.

I picked up a £5,000 2011 Reg Ford Fiesta Edge 1.4 TDCi 5 Door in Red as my Clio was becoming more and more of a financial burden.

I thought I had 2 years no claims discount, although Admiral advised me I actually have three (Apparently they count the time spent as a learner driver as no claims too).

So I now have 3 years no claims which has been proved and submitted to my new insurer (LV), the cost of insuring my £5,000 car came to a very reasonable £695 (£660 plus £20 legal cover and £15 windscreen or accident injury cover, one of those two).

The only downer is the excess is quite a pricey one, at £500.

I also looked at Telematics on my new car, the best price for this was £590 - a saving of £100, however i've also heard stories from mate's brother's that it's saved them no money, and in some cases, ended up costing them more.

Also, after having read your post, just thought i'd point out a thing or two:

It's not just about how much your car is worth, it's also about the other party, or parties involved.

For instance, suppose your car is worth £1,000, and you pay £3,000 to insure, you'll think the insurers are saying you will write your car off three times a year, in reality, suppose you have a smash where you are at fault (say hitting a very expensive car in this example) - the repair costs can very very quickly mount up.

My dad once had his stationary (parked) 4x4 hit by a guy going round a corner too fast in his van, the damage was certainly noticeable, nice big dent down the side, smashed left headlight, and the left side front wheel was slightly shredded, even for reasonably minor damage like that, the repair bill was about £800.

I know exactly how you feel, i've been through the same thing before.

I did ideally want a Zetec S, however these are a 1.6 and the insurance from a 1.4 -> 1.6 goes up by about £400 (Based on my criteria), because of this factor and the other factor of emissions tax (a Zetec S costing around £130-£180 a year road fund, and my 1.4 TDCi only costing £20 a year!) I decided to go with a 1.4 Edge, I may end up getting a Zetec S / ST when i'm nearly 25 and have a higher paying job and can afford a top of the range model.

Basically, what i'd advise you to do, is find the best rate you can get, stick at it with a reasonable first car for at least two years, and then if you have the cash for a newer car, shop around for insurance quotes.