The point about running an IC engine on hydrogen is that you still have the mechanical complexity and it's still burning a small quantity of lubricant. A far better use for hydrogen is in a fuel cell driving an electric motor which is a much simpler mechanical system, requiring much less maintenance.

1 hour ago, mjt said:

The point about running an IC engine on hydrogen is that you still have the mechanical complexity and it's still burning a small quantity of lubricant. A far better use for hydrogen is in a fuel cell driving an electric motor which is a much simpler mechanical system, requiring much less maintenance.

The point about hydrogen is it takes 2.5-3  times as much electric to get the same amount of energy in hydrogen. Then if in ice cars there's still the inherent combustion losses like petrol and diesel but more inefficient So 80% of the energy dissipates in heat/friction losses etc. 

Hydrogen needs to be kept in a tank  at very high pressures of 10000 psi normally. So not your average cheap petrol fuel tank. Hydrogen molecules are so small that they can escape easily therefore any potential leak under that pressure must be avoided. 

As some are saying there's supposed to be  not enough electric for all these bev cars and heat pumps , so where's the electric coming from to produce large quantities of inefficient hydrogen. I've no doubt a more efficient hydrogen use in fuel cell vehicles will be more common along side  the Bev's as time goes on .

It seems quite amusing that us  alot debating this are not the ones who will not have the choice what fuel type to drive in the future. I never buy a new car. Nothing stopping me buying/running a used petrol or diesel if I so choose until I die really. I had a 50yr old petrol car and used that daily to work for quite a while. 

Ask a young driver what fuel they want in a car and they couldn't care less on as long as its got apple car play/android auto. 😂😂😂😂

Oh, and if you think the current petrol and diesels don't emit any nasty pollutants, I welcome you to  spend a few hours where I work with  the equivilant of  heavy traffic cold engine vehicles churning out stinking crap passing by  that make you cough if too near. 

8 hours ago, iantt said:

It seems quite amusing that us  alot debating this are not the ones who will not have the choice what fuel type to drive in the future. I never buy a new car. Nothing stopping me buying/running a used petrol or diesel if I so choose until I die really. I had a 50yr old petrol car and used that daily to work for quite a while. 

Ask a young driver what fuel they want in a car and they couldn't care less on as long as its got apple car play/android auto. 😂😂😂😂

I also read that you can not simply convert a standard petrol station in to a hydrogen station as you can with electric.

The piece I read (which I can't find) said it would cost several billions to have enough hydrogen refilling stations (currently 15 in UK.)

I think hydrogen can have a place in public transport and large commercial fleets, for the general population the cost are probably too high.

As Ian says it take a huge amount of electricity (at a huge cost) to produce clean hydrogen, and all those tankers you see delivering everyday will need to be replaced too, as the can't carry the gas.

12 minutes ago, Mark-UK said:

I think hydrogen can have a place in public transport and large commercial fleets, for the general population the cost are probably too high.

Am a huge fan of hydrogen as you state, these are built down the road from me and I see 'new' ones on the road all the time...

I would hope places like Manchester where the council now run the bus service will set a timetable where all buses have to use green engines be that hydrogen or electric.

In important part on the Wright bus website.

"Carbon savings are calculated compared to the same journeys using an EU6 diesel powered bus. Overall carbon saving cannot be determined, as the source and type of hydrogen varies"

 

On 9/24/2023 at 11:20 PM, iantt said:

Oh, and if you think the current petrol and diesels don't emit any nasty pollutants, I welcome you to  spend a few hours where I work with  the equivilant of  heavy traffic cold engine vehicles churning out stinking crap passing by  that make you cough if too near.

Four or five years ago we booked accommodation on a main route into Harrogate to visit friends who lived on a side road a bit further down. Walking to see them the pollution from the queues of stationary traffic - caused by traffic lights, naturally - was terrible. You could taste it so I fully agree with what Ian is saying. Of course the much-maligned Auto Stop-Start is supposed to reduce this . . . . .

At least as EVs become more widespread this problem will start to disappear and Mr. Khan et al will have to find some other cash cow to top up their coffers.

Of all places I found a main road in and out of st helier in jersey that made me feel quite ill from the fumes . There was also a tunnel that you had to walk through to get to the main square with traffic going through. Was so glad to get to the sea/beach road 

On 9/24/2023 at 11:20 PM, iantt said:

As some are saying there's supposed to be  not enough electric for all these bev cars and heat pumps , so where's the electric coming from to produce large quantities of inefficient hydrogen. I've no doubt a more efficient hydrogen use in fuel cell vehicles will be more common along side  the Bev's as time goes on .

The problem as I see it is that we are investing massively in wind and solar power, while paying too little attention to a couple of other factors:

1) Wind and solar often produce power in excess of the demand, so where do you store it? Only viable answers so far are pumped storage schemes (e.g. Dinorwig, Ben Cruachan), battery storage, and production of "green" hydrogen.

2) Back up for those occasions when wind and solar are insufficient to meet demand. The answer is partly (and may ultimately be wholly) the same as 1) above but until that point we're looking at gas or nuclear.

19 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

The problem as I see it is that we are investing massively in wind and solar power, while paying too little attention to a couple of other factors:

1) Wind and solar often produce power in excess of the demand, so where do you store it? Only viable answers so far are pumped storage schemes (e.g. Dinorwig, Ben Cruachan), battery storage, and production of "green" hydrogen.

Funny you mention this, we have a scheme up here producing green hydrogen. Opened with a big fanfare but I've not heard much about it recently, although that's not to say it's not still in operation. I pass, on a daily occurrence, the vehicle refilling station but don't often see vehicles parked there. 

 

https://www.orkney.com/life/energy/hydrogen#

 

 

Reading that does mention marine and aircraft applications which would obviously make sense. 

Let's hope they make a better job than the last aircraft with hydrogen 

18 minutes ago, iantt said:

Reading that does mention marine and aircraft applications which would obviously make sense. 

Let's hope they make a better job than the last aircraft with hydrogen 

If you watch the video I shared the fella on there explains a lot better than me that it wasn't the hydrogen so much as the construction of the ship itself that contributed to the explosion........ apparently! 😀

Perhaps EVs should come with free anger management courses:

https://metro.co.uk/2023/10/02/marshals-are-being-brought-in-to-police-rows-between-ev-drivers-19588089/?ico=top-stories_home_top#:~:text=The UK’s biggest chain of motorway service stations,to keep up with demand%2C industry figures say.

 

30 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Perhaps EVs should come with free anger management courses:

If only we could have seen that coming 🤣

3 hours ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Perhaps EVs should come with free anger management courses:

Will EV owners be charged with assault and battery if they start something ? 🤣

4 hours ago, StephenFord said:

If only we could have seen that coming 🤣

If only.😂😂 only takes a queue jumper to start things off. 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1496737/petrol-station-fight-brawl-video-Chichester-fuel-supply-problems-West-Sussex

1 hour ago, iantt said:

If only.😂😂 only takes a queue jumper to start things off. 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1496737/petrol-station-fight-brawl-video-Chichester-fuel-supply-problems-West-Sussex

The waiting time is becoming an issue here in the States as well. Very recently, U.S. Energy Secretary, Gennifer  Granholmn  ((former Governor of Michigan) was making a publicized journey to use her EV to commute to D.C. problems arose when it was revealed that she had people who were traveling ahead of her in combustion vehicles to grab charging stations ahead of her arrival! Needless to say, it was a public relations disaster.

But, wait times are among the least of the issues. Outside of the technological leader, Tesla, there are absolutely no competitors that have achieved the same level of functionality and upgradeable OTA software even remotely similar to what Tesla has had for several years!

The US companies have failed to develop their own technology and specifically their own software. VW is in even worse shape regarding their development capabilities. The response from the ID4 from the drivers perspective is slow and clunky. I am seeing ID4 sitting on lots as used! VW group is probably in very dire circumstances. What I drove was not a smoothly responsive and useable design. It's not something that just firing a couple of engineers and managers is going to fix.

Ford and GM are in a similar situation with somewhat different levels of non functionality or glichiness. Given the massive gap between them and Tesla, anyone who has the slightest understanding about development times to reach market is watching the industry consistently fumble at the same time they are burning through hundreds of millions of dollars at breakneck speed. It's becoming more clear that they have not developed or adopted the mindset and processes required to make a useable and desirable design at scale.

 

10 hours ago, iantt said:

If only.😂😂 only takes a queue jumper to start things off. 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1496737/petrol-station-fight-brawl-video-Chichester-fuel-supply-problems-West-Sussex

In the late 70s, during an 'oil crisis', I remember having to queue for petrol. Though there was no sign of violence, or impatience. That was in Belfast where often folk settled arguments in a much more violent method!

Frustrations like that also arose during lockdown when folk fought over the last toilet rolls, and pasta items! People act stupid when their standard of life seems threatened.

The EV issue is systemic, as the nature if charging takes much time, (a 5 minute petrol full up is a distant dream) and actual resource is currently limited with no 'plentiful' supply in sight...

I would love an old classic car with a 4 or 5 liter V8 engine, but even though I could maybe scrape together enough to buy it, I know that the 15-20mpg would cripple me. Strange that people buy EVs with a desire to save the world, but can't see far enough into the future to plan how to run it!

mmm... driver kidnapped by his own car LOL Now, I foresaw this a longtime ago when eejits suggested the development of the 'driverless car'. Anyone with a computer will know that sometimes, it freezes (it just does!), or you get a blue screen of death. What makes the creators of these monstrosities think there computer controlled death traps will be immune??

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67005620

 

3 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

mmm... driver kidnapped by his own car

I saw that story earlier and thought I'd see a post from you!😀 Sounds very scary!

I have a suspicion though, that I'd seen something similar concerning an ICE car. Seems to be a possibility with anything controlled by an electronic "brain" - we already have accelerators with no physical connection to the engine, I recall Mercedes trying "brake by wire" a while back, and I was reading something about "steer by wire" the other day.

 

22 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

I saw that story earlier and thought I'd see a post from you!😀 Sounds very scary!

I have a suspicion though, that I'd seen something similar concerning an ICE car. Seems to be a possibility with anything controlled by an electronic "brain" - we already have accelerators with no physical connection to the engine, I recall Mercedes trying "brake by wire" a while back, and I was reading something about "steer by wire" the other day.

 

I've often though as we read post after post about maybe, lights not working on an older car, often caused by water ingress to the GEM. In 10/15 years time, what if water ingress makes an 'electric' car lose comms with the steering, or accelerator? By definition an unknown fault now, but we all know how faults become 'common' over time (eg cluster fault in Mk2s)

I should add that many aircraft systems have been fly by wire for years, but they're often not left out in the rain every night for rust/water to take hold of the control systems... (and they have much more stringent maintenance schedules)

nothing new there my cruise control locked on on the motorway years ago in my SD1 - frightened the life outta me tried never to buy a car with it and if i did never use it. Case in point my current.

1 hour ago, StephenFord said:

I should add that many aircraft systems have been fly by wire for years, but they're often not left out in the rain every night for rust/water to take hold of the control systems... (and they have much more stringent maintenance schedules)

Even then, things seem to go wrong. Watched the very interesting series Top Guns: Inside the RAF recently and there were a couple of episodes where they suffered "glitches" and either couldn't get off the ground or had to abort mid-sortie. Watched something similar a couple of years back about the new wonder machine F35 Lightning which wouldn't start. The pilot had to use the familiar computer trick of switching everything off and back on.

I thought at the time this is all very well, but where would we have been in 1940 with that happening? Would the Luftwaffe  have waited around while we re-booted the Spitfires and Hurricanes?😀

 

1 hour ago, Jimpster said:

nothing new there my cruise control locked on on the motorway years ago in my SD1

They were pretty crude in those days, iirc, but I'm still pretty wary of using cruise I must admit. Mainly use it in areas that I know are mobile camera hotspots or where average speed cameras are operating.

Ps cruise control was invented by a blind man - hope he never tried using it himself on the road!

https://www.eit.edu.au/the-blind-man-who-invented-cruise-control/

10 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

... and there were a couple of episodes where they suffered "glitches" and either couldn't get off the ground or had to abort mid-sortie. 

I love that series! Sadly, I also watch another series, 'Air Crash Investigation', over 240 episodes of which I've seen every one. Yep, the number of 'glitches' should make us all terrified of millions of 'drive by wire' cars going about their business with potential errors in software, control systems, and pure driver error in using the controls 😂