https://www.fastcompany.com/91169084/why-hyundai-is-all-in-on-hydrogen

More interesting snippets in the media this week on the fall of EV sales in Europe:

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-13870203/EU-demand-electric-cars-continues-fall-sales-collapse-France-Germany.html

Volvo, who were going EV only by 2030, now appear to have backtracked and will continue selling ICE cars (probably hybrid) for as long as there is demand and legislation permits.

 Manufacturers are between a rock and a hard place. If they sell customers what they currently want to buy, they face massive penalties. If they churn out cars customers don't want to buy, they have fields full of unsold vehicles.

VW are talking of closing 2 factories and shedding 30,000 staff.

I'm still not sure myself whether the lack of demand is purely because customers are turned off by EVs per se. I see plenty of EVs in certain categories -  Executive cars, and high end SUVs, and it appears those who want that type of vehicle are happy to go EV, particularly if making a business purchase.

There are still few EVs in the smaller/cheaper categories with the exception of the likes of MG etc. I can see why this is - it was initially easier to absorb the extra cost/bulk of early EVs in a larger vehicle with a higher price. As development continues, and EV componentry becomes cheaper and more compact, smaller/cheaper vehicles become a realistic prospect.

It does seem to me that the basic issue here is not EVs as such, but government interference forcing unrealistic timescales on the industry rather than allowing the market to develop normally. If/when zero-emission vehicles are regarded as a better choice by the consumer, they will sell. As it is, we are in danger of seeing major employers to go the wall, or at least shrink drastically, with a substantial loss of skilled jobs.

 

On 9/12/2024 at 9:15 PM, eddie eastwood said:

https://www.fastcompany.com/91169084/why-hyundai-is-all-in-on-hydrogen

Interesting article. Just been reading that BMW intend to launch an FCEV (probably a version of the X5) in 2028.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

It does seem to me that the basic issue here is not EVs as such, but government interference ...

Well said... 👍

Government interference with market forces may very well push many companies into bankruptcy. The American automakers are now trying to re-make product decisions that were made several years ago that would “electrify” their product offerings. Now, they are trying to turn the very large and ponderous product planning process around to something more like a mix of hybrid and petrol vehicles that would not require a charging station. Or, roughly a reversal to what looks like the plan in 2014. Which was working! People were saying yes to hybrid cars and SUV’s.

Only Toyota has largely stayed on a steady course of offering hybrid vehicles across a range of models. They will be able to gain market share as the reward for reading the customer base more accurately. Everyone else is busy scrambling and scrapping their plans to move forward. The cash burn rate to do that is staggering.

1 hour ago, Scottman said:

Only Toyota has largely stayed on a steady course of offering hybrid vehicles across a range of models. 

Yes, it's a shame for Toyota in UK/Europe that their hybrids, which are a good pragmatic step on the road to lower emissions, get lumped in for the same treatment as pure ICE. There were intended to be exemptions/extensions to the ICE sales cut off for certain hybrids, but afaik no-one has clarified exactly what the criteria would be. 

3 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Yes, it's a shame for Toyota in UK/Europe that their hybrids, which are a good pragmatic step on the road to lower emissions, get lumped in for the same treatment as pure ICE. There were intended to be exemptions/extensions to the ICE sales cut off for certain hybrids, but afaik no-one has clarified exactly what the criteria would be. 

Yep, My Toyoda seems to be one of the smarter CEOs of car companies, with a firm belief that the market should dictate the direction of personal transport, not governments!

Toyota is being rational about the market. They have a very long vision for their product line and are not generally swayed by certain trends that may not be present in two years or less. 
I have driven many thousands of miles in Corolla, RAV4 and Matrix with zero issues. The other thing I like about Toyota is that they don’t abandon their nameplates.  Corolla and the value proposition it represents are considered to be sacred within the Toyota product line. Unlike Ford that spends billions to create a nameplate and a perception of what it represents as a product to the consumer only to abandon it for another product within a decade or less.

 

14 hours ago, Scottman said:

I have driven many thousands of miles in Corolla, RAV4 and Matrix with zero issues.

I mentioned in another thread a review of the 2024 Puma which got some serious criticism for the cheapening of the interior. The 155 ST-Line X DCT reviewed cost £30,800 before extras. For £300 less you could have a "basic" Corolla Icon 1.8 140 which has all the kit I would reasonably want, or for £1450 more the 2.0 200ps version. Hmmm...........

I see that Drax, who I often mention, have now been fined for a third time by regulators for pollution in Mississippi:

https://mississippitoday.org/2024/09/12/drax-receives-another-fine-for-air-pollution-violations-in-gloster/

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-13879277/Stop-handouts-polluter-Drax-say-campaigners.html

It also transpires that they have paid out around $3.2m in settlement for similar pollution in Louisiana without admitting liability.

 

Well, it is Mississippi, after all. Very corrupt government. A level of general poverty that would be shocking if it hadn’t been that way for as long as anyone can remember. 
there are a few hidden gems in that State. But, the travelers eyes fall upon a much more glaring landscape of poverty and all around shabbiness that I can honestly say that I have never seen in such abundance in any other state I have traveled through. just the thought of it is depressing to me. 

I'm just wondering if I'm the only one that has had thoughts of the following nature.

Recently, we have seen almost science fiction like scenes where ordinary 'pagers' and 'walkie talkies' have been individually targeted as part of a military attack and been made to literally explode.

What is to stop someone with mal intent to get hold of an EV VIN No. and make the internal Lithium Ion battery destruct in a similar fashion? China will be the largest producers of EVs and even if they weren't, wouldn't other EVs be as vulnerable?

19 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

and make the internal Lithium Ion battery destruct in a similar fashion?

A new twist to the term 'EcoBOOM' 🤣

27 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

wouldn't other EVs be as vulnerable?

It struck me that any electrical device receiving an external signal could be vulnerable. Cars, certainly, but what about internet tv and even some fridges where you can check the contents remotely, and video doorbells, etc, etc? 

29 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

It struck me that any electrical device receiving an external signal could be vulnerable. Cars, certainly, but what about internet tv and even some fridges where you can check the contents remotely, and video doorbells, etc, etc? 

One of the reasons I don't own (or ever will) an internet TV, internet fridge, internet doorbell (mine goes ding/dong and is 35 years old)

This race to have an interconnected world is fundamentally flawed. Will gladly post an, 'I told you so' post when it all goes t*ts up, of course, my LapTop will have exploded by then 🤣

I haven't even got a ding dong🤣🤣🤣

1 minute ago, iantt said:

I haven't even got a ding dong🤣🤣🤣

Oh er missus 🤣

1 minute ago, iantt said:

haven't even got a ding dong

Too much personal information, this is a family forum 🤣🤣

I just have a dong. 😉

Was considering a big bell at the end of drive. 

Further job losses due to sluggish EV demand:

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/northvolt-cut-1-600-jobs-111620275.html

 

I find it interesting that the news media is still talking about how demand for electric vehicles is increasing. Inspite of the mountains of evidence that it is not. It is plain to see for anyone that cares to open their eyes. 
I am looking for news bits that are talking about how Ford has opened up the ability for any Ford dealership to sell electric Ford vehicles. Just three years ago they were demanding that dealers buy an extension of their franchise in order to sell electric vehicles. They were requiring them to buy that privilege to sell them. My guess is that there has been a quiet agreement reached with the dealers to make the situation “go away”.

I have no idea how Ford is handling this situation in the U.K.  I understand that the sales of EV are heavily influenced by a large tax payer funded subsidy (ie, money from people who are not buying electric vehicles!) to reduce the price. So, further price reductions are coming directly out of the profit margins of those vehicles. Which almost completely destroys the cost recovery of engineering and manufacturing these vehicles. The timeline for cost recovery is now bending over the horizon from an accounting perspective.

38 minutes ago, Scottman said:

I find it interesting that the news media is still talking about how demand for electric vehicles is increasing. Inspite of the mountains of evidence that it is not. It is plain to see for anyone that cares to open their eyes.

All media are supported by income generated by advertising - there's your answer. EV manufactures spend £Billions on advertising, TV, radio, press. There's no way 'media' is going to bite the hand that feeds them.

41 minutes ago, Scottman said:

I understand that the sales of EV are heavily influenced by a large tax payer funded subsidy (ie, money from people who are not buying electric vehicles!) to reduce the price. So, further price reductions are coming directly out of the profit margins of those vehicles.

The SMMT (Society of Motor Manufactures and Traders) recently stated that out of every 11 EV sales, only ONE is to a genuine private buyer, the other 10 are to fleet/contract/tax relief seeking customers. People just don't want to buy them out of their own money. Not because EVs are inherently bad, but, they are being denied the free choice of what to buy into what is currently a fledgling mode of transport with huge infrastructure issues.

If they were as great as the media tell us, the buying public would be flocking to purchase them, they're not - because most intelligent folk can see beyond the cloak of lies they're being sold.

The whole house of cards will soon start to topple. Whether it's deadline dates being pushed back, or people looking compensation in being sold an EV pup (like they did when their diesel cars were discovered not to be the fuel of the future like government promised). Or politicians like Ed Silliband insisting to fine us for a whole host of 'green' infringements. Destroying whatever trust some still have in government.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Scottman said:

I understand that the sales of EV are heavily influenced by a large tax payer funded subsidy (ie, money from people who are not buying electric vehicles!) to reduce the price.

It's a pretty confusing situation. I think you're referring there to the plug-in vehicle grant which has now been discontinued for cars, but continues for taxis, vans, trucks, some motorcycles and wheelchair accessible vehicles.

The main driver for EV car sales are advantageous "benefit in kind" tax rates for company cars, plus "salary sacrifice" schemes as explained here: https://www.carwow.co.uk/guides/buying/electric-car-salary-sacrifice

This explains why there has been strong growth in certain vehicle classes favoured as company cars, less so for private motorists. (As I've mentioned before, I was heavily whacked by the taxman as a company car user, so if still in that position I would undoubtedly be using an EV for business!).

The previous Conservative government originally set a cut off date of 2030 for pure ICE sales, then relaxed it to 2035 (in line with our friends in Europe), but the new Labour government have now restored 2030.

The unknown factor is there is still provision for hybrids up to 2035, but (afaik) no-one has defined exactly which hybrids they mean! 

On top of that we have the ZEV mandate in the UK which means manufacturers are fined for each non-ZEV they sell over the target (22% this year, increasing to 80% by 2030).

The EU are a little more rational, mandating a 55% reduction in average CO2 from 2021 levels. They will also permit sale of new ICE vehicles after 2035 if using carbon neutral fuel (e.g.synthetic).

As our new Government keeps talking of greater alignment with the EU, it remains to be seen it they shift their position in future, particularly as some manufacturers (e.g. Stellantis) are making loud noises about pulling out of the UK unless they do so.

Stelantis will be “pulling out” everywhere in a couple of years. They are going to rationalize themselves into oblivion. They currently enjoy three of the ten slowest selling vehicle lines in North America. When I walk into a dodge or jeep dealership I can smell the losses piling up 

On 9/24/2024 at 11:28 AM, StephenFord said:

What is to stop someone with mal intent to get hold of an EV VIN No. and make the internal Lithium Ion battery destruct in a similar fashion?

Is the threat any different to those actors getting a petrol powered car to explode.  Some people seem to forget that petrol is volatile and flammable and explosive.