Right there Eric! Of course the subject only involves massive changes across most of what is understood to be a working economy. I don’t know a single person who has a clue about anything that isn’t absolutely for improvement of efficiency. But, I don’t believe that our leadership has the same thing in mind. Except for Joe, he hasn’t a clue about anything that doesn’t increase his family wealth. But, he will be scraped off soon and replaced with someone who is a better puppet. Or, quite possibly an insurrection will begin to boil here in America. 

8 hours ago, Scottman said:

The “trick” that governments have been trying to pull on their people is to exponentially increase the cost of the the diesel and petrol vehicles and then sell us the notion that the EV is “cheaper”. 

Yes, I see the EPA seems to be pursuing a similar strategy to the EU on vehicle emissions standards. The Euro 7 regs due 2025 have the effect of making "affordable" small ICE cars uneconomic to produce as the cost of making them comply can't be swallowed in a "cheap" car, nor is there physically room for some of the emissions gear, e.g. E-cats.

Ironically this has the effect of taking small, economical cars which typically do less miles and consequently produce little pollution, off the market. On the other hand, big SUVs which have plenty of space for the emissions gear and a higher price/bigger manufacturer margin can better absorb the additional cost, though of course they are more polluting overall. 

Quite the reverse of what is supposedly intended.

5 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Yes, I see the EPA seems to be pursuing a similar strategy to the EU on vehicle emissions standards...

 

I believe that an EPA report published in 2012 already stated that we had already passed the point of 'no return'  to save the planet and we were on a terminal decline to oblivion.

That's the thing, predictions by large government agencies are often wrong, especially predictions about the future...

All of the agencies are in complete agreement regarding what they are going to do with us. It doesn’t matter if you are in the UK, America or Europe. The only difference is the timing. And that is not very different. 
The people implementing this are globalists. It’s going to be a one size fits all proposition. 

The Pro-EV camp has decided to take steps to counter the increasingly negative press coverage of EV's.

Nothing they had to say impressed me, but it is nevertheless important to stay in touch with all sides of the argument.  Be interested to hear reactions from others on this forum. 

They fell into the trap of pointing out that much safer, more efficient batteries are in the pipeline ... great, but what about the vehicles currently in showrooms?  Nothing would persuade me to buy one and I think many others feel the same way ... hence VW, for example, are cutting back some staff and extending holidays on at least one of their EV production lines.

1 hour ago, Linds said:

but it is nevertheless important to stay in touch with all sides of the argument.  

Very much agree with that, and not just in the field of EVs. The world would be a better place if we all listened to, understood and respected the views of others, even if we don't necessary agree with them. "Rent a mob" please note!😀

It must be that these guy’s are living in an alternative universe. They are claiming that sales are increasing!

the world I live in has sales stalled at best, among the traditional auto makers. Tesla is a separate case. They have an entirely different financial situation and almost no legacy costs to contend with.

6 minutes ago, Scottman said:

It must be that these guy’s are living in an alternative universe. They are claiming that sales are increasing!

 

Quentin Wilson (the guy on the right) has been a motoring journalist in the UK for decades, being one of the original hosts of Top Gear in the early 90s. He was also a spokesman for FairFuel UK up to 2 years ago, when he resigned because he stated he wasn't a fan of their non 'environmental' credentials. He is now a zealous spokes person for EVs, having owned Teslas for a decade.

I'm not saying he made up, 'increasing sales', (ahem...) but it furthers his current agenda to perpetuate such myths...

32 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

I'm not saying he made up, 'increasing sales', (ahem...) but it furthers his current agenda to perpetuate such myths...

It's difficult to find a definitive view of the current (sorry!) EV sales situation.

Not looking good in the States as Scott says:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/slow-selling-evs-are-auto-industrys-new-headache-2023-07-11/

My thoughts on the UK is that sales have been driven by those who can see a tax advantage. As I've said before, were I still in the golden wheels club I might well have looked seriously at a Tesla Model 3  or similar myself to minimise my company car tax bill. 

There are other people for whom an EV will probably work quite well - access to home charging, little need for long range, etc. 

But I suspect that both those markets are near to being satisfied - time will tell.

41 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Not looking good in the States as Scott says:..

 

I've been cynical enough about EVs as the future for UK personal transportation, but the USA is a whole different kettle of fish! For a start, the size of the country, over 3000 miles coast to coast, a journey only made viable by being able full up with fuel in 300 mile bites, I know, I did it as a teenager.

The UK is much smaller but even still, current range of EVs is a large barrier for many. Driving around London probably not a big issue. But driving around rural Scotland, probably a big issue.

I believe the USA will be far more resistant than at first many thought. They have a car culture that we only see on TV, the whole road network of interstate highways is just different, and simply not suitable for current generation EVs. 

This is Whatcar says about UK sales June 2023, although I don't know the original source:

Plug-in hybrid sales grew by the biggest margin, with 12,770 joining the roads over the course of the month – 65.5% more than the year before. Sales of regular hybrids also increased significantly, from 14,978 last June to 20,991 in June 2023.

Likewise, electric car sales increased by nearly two fifths, to 31,700

Apologies for the font size - I just copied and pasted!

3 hours ago, Linds said:

Nothing would persuade me to buy one

Have you ever driven one?

7 minutes ago, alanfp said:

Have you ever driven one?

With respect, I think you've missed the point. I'm quite ready to accept they are marvelous cars to drive, fabulous acceleration, lots of gadgets etc etc. It's the fundamental ethos of them I object to. They are not, in current form, the saviour of the planet. They are equally as polluting (from cradle to grave), far too expensive, far too heavy. With many millions currently using a £1000 - £5000 runabout being totally pushed off the road. No longer being able to go to work, visit family, do their shopping, attend medical appointments.

It's a rich elitist game, if they're that brilliant, let the market decide their success, not a mandate from our government...

39 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

They are not, in current form, the saviour of the planet. They are equally as polluting (from cradle to grave), far too expensive, far too heavy. With many millions currently using a £1000 - £5000 runabout being totally pushed off the road. No longer being able to go to work, visit family, do their shopping, attend medical appointments.

I don't disagree with you there (although we will still be able to run our old cars until they expire, so we won't really be pushed off the road).

It was the previous poster's assertion that 'nothing' would persuade him to buy one. I'm suggesting that were he to drive one around town for ten minutes, he might suddenly find that THAT would persuade him to buy one.

1 hour ago, alanfp said:

This is Whatcar says about UK sales June 2023, although I don't know the original source:

Plug-in hybrid sales grew by the biggest margin, with 12,770 joining the roads over the course of the month – 65.5% more than the year before. Sales of regular hybrids also increased significantly, from 14,978 last June to 20,991 in June 2023.

Likewise, electric car sales increased by nearly two fifths, to 31,700

Apologies for the font size - I just copied and pasted!

Original source will be the smmt . So are electric car sales increasing or decreasing??? Conflicting statements again. I know from my experience that van sales are increasing anyway. Well they are for where I work. Last six months we have increased electric van deliveries probably 300% . ( And no it not 3 vans instead of 1 🤣🤣)   Still small numbers compared to diesel vans but more and more each day. Mache e sales are primarily lease companies and car rental companies. We doing 5 times more of those than just a few months ago. Those will be on the used market in a couple of years but don't know who will buy these 2yr old , prices will still be beyond most drivers. 

Dealers have Mach E and Lightning on their lots for immediate delivery. I have noticed a couple of VW EV on their local lot. Hyundai I will have a look at tomorrow. I will be in the neighborhood and visit!

The national automotive media sees a lot of electric vehicles sitting on the  lots. Rebates and price cutting are dirty words in America these days. Automakers became very comfortable with list plus added dealer profit pricing during the pandemic. I snapped a pic of the jalopnik story that was posted Monday about how EV’s are taking up space.

I would have to believe that the automakers are going to offer very attractive lease plans before the end of summer.

 

 

Perhaps they will put them in boxes and sell them cheap at Christmas, "Batteries Not Included" 🤣

17 hours ago, Scottman said:

The national automotive media sees a lot of electric vehicles sitting on the  lots. Rebates and price cutting are dirty words in America these days. Automakers became very comfortable with list plus added dealer profit pricing during the pandemic. I snapped a pic of the jalopnik story that was posted Monday about how EV’s are taking up space.

I would have to believe that the automakers are going to offer very attractive lease plans before the end of summer.

 

 

And this is the same reporter . 104% increase on this time last year. What's more concerning is there's alot of Dacia sanderos being sold. That doesn't sound right. 

11 minutes ago, iantt said:

... What's more concerning is there's alot of Dacia sanderos being sold. That doesn't sound right.

Interesting to note that in Europe, the Sandero has several different variants using, 'duel fuel', petrol & LPG, and LPG is much more common in Europe mainland than here in the UK, and still about half the price of petrol.

Interesting one I was reading about the other day is ammonia being trialled as a fuel. I believe it burns slower than petrol so probably more useful as a derv substitute.

Intriguing thought though, I believe a natural source is urine so it might be a way of dealing with those moments when you've just got to go and there's no loo handy and topping up your tank at the same time?

2 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

I believe a natural source is urine so it might be a way of dealing with those moments when you've just got to go and there's no loo handy and topping up your tank at the same time?

Especially for those with an Easy Filler system, having a built in SheWee LOL 🤣

2 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

handy and topping up your tank at the same time?

You'd need to be careful of the 'easy fuel' flap, or it might catch hold of vital equipment 🤣

1 hour ago, StephenFord said:

Interesting to note that in Europe, the Sandero has several different variants using, 'duel fuel', petrol & LPG, and LPG is much more common in Europe mainland than here in the UK, and still about half the price of petrol.

I have driven LP converted light trucks. They have some interesting drivability characteristics when the ambient temperature drops near freezing!

Just now, Scottman said:

I have driven LP converted light trucks. They have some interesting drivability characteristics when the ambient temperature drops near freezing!

My old LPG Mercedes never really experienced freezing temperatures, and was a joy to drive (when it worked, totally unreliable due to electrical gremlins, nothing to do with LPG). Could you not just press the button to go back to petrol if driving got a bit spicy?