4 minutes ago, alexp999 said:

Sure, but I'm just saying they are two different issues.

I agree, but most of the ones I have seen on the Television have complained that their Brakes failed after their Engines stopped turning. From that I assumed that a lot of people do not know how Servo Assistance works, hence my comments for anyone reading this  public Forum who do not realise what will happen shortly after their Engine stops turning.

1 minute ago, Tizer said:

I agree, but most of the ones I have seen on the Television have complained that their Brakes failed after their Engines stopped turning. From that I assumed that a lot of people do not know how Servo Assistance works, hence my comments for anyone reading this  public Forum who do not realise what will happen shortly after their Engine stops turning.

Yeah I'm just curious if Ecoboom has a different issue, like Eric said with the engine still running but vacuum getting block instead.

1 minute ago, alexp999 said:

Yeah I'm just curious if Ecoboom has a different issue, like Eric said with the engine still running but vacuum getting block instead.

He didn't specify either way.

51 minutes ago, Tizer said:

He didn't specify either way.

As usual, when you want to find something you cant!

I'm pretty sure I've seen a few posts over the years, possibly on Ford forums other than this, where  the vacuum pump had failed due to oil starvation, but without the engine completely failing at the time. Pump was either replaced or unclogged and servo operation restored.

When you just see something like that in isolation you tend to think it's unconnected but, given what we now know, it all starts to make sense and could well be an early indication of belt degredation, and in the cases I'd seen, "Boom!" may well have been the eventual consequence.

 Of course, if "Boom!" occurs first, you'll lose servo assistance anyway.

 

1 hour ago, Tizer said:

From that I assumed that a lot of people do not know how Servo Assistance works, hence my comments for anyone reading this  public Forum who do not realise what will happen shortly after their Engine stops turning.

I think that's a good point. I would guess that many drivers now have never driven a car without servo assistance and don't realise that if you lose the servo, the brakes should still function but need a much harder push.

Of course, it's ok saying that on a forum, but out on the road, when your brakes suddenly don't respond to the usual gentle touch, it must be very scary.

Just now, Eric Bloodaxe said:

I think that's a good point. I would guess that many drivers now have never driven a car without servo assistance and don't realise that if you lose the servo, the brakes should still function but need a much harder push.

Of course, it's ok saying that on a forum, but out on the road, when your brakes suddenly don't respond to the usual gentle touch, it must be very scary.

I've moved a car on a sloped driveway before, hadn't been driving all that long, it just needed rolling back a bit. Didn't start the engine, brakes felt fine for the first couple of touches, then nothing, ah!

People are generally 'weaker' nowadays.  All well & good saying push the pedal harder, but most of us probably don't have that much leg strength now.  I've found that even rolling a 'dead' car down a drive slightly with no servo assistance makes it very difficult to stop.  Yanking on the handbrake provides more stopping power - as long as it's a long manual lever and not EPB of course.  Same with the steering, losing PAS on an ePAS car generally does make it too heavy for many (most?) of us to steer at low speed.  

It's just one of those things we all have to accept though.  Cars are unreliable and always have been.  (Put those rose tinted specs away lol).  They can break down in many different ways, and if the engine stops for any reason, you'll lose steering & brakes quickly.  Can't be overly cautious and constantly worrying about it though, as that generally means losing focus in other areas and making mistakes in those instead.  But it's always something that should be at the back of your mind imo...

I shudder to think what would happen to my car if I ever had to give a younger driver a tow now, between the Brakes and no Power Steering.

It was common place when I was younger  because cars were not as reliable and no one I knew could afford a nearly new one. 

It's also built in to the design, EPAS means they can run much quicker steering racks on newer cars, you don't need the leverage of the steering ratio to turn the wheel if an electric motor is helping you.

I have driven my car without EPAS. 235 profile tyres with "the quickest rack fitted to a Ford" (from the PR iirc) is really hard going at low speed. It felt like I was going to brake something (in the end it was mostly my arms, lol).

Just now, TomsFocus said:

People are generally 'weaker' nowadays.  

Yes, back in the day we all had massive leg muscles from heavy clutches and non-servo brakes, and rippling arm muscles from non-assisted steering!😀 

From the number of people you see out on bikes these days, I doubt that's necessarily true, but I do feel that some of the "assistance" is way over the top, so that if it fails, the contrast is greater. And people do seem to expect "stuff" to do more things for them these days.

 

 

36 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

As usual, when you want to find something you cant!

I'm pretty sure I've seen a few posts over the years, possibly on Ford forums other than this, where  the vacuum pump had failed due to oil starvation

My experience is the other way round, the things I have seen have been mostly Engines stopping that have caused the inexperienced drivers problems.

On the subject of Power Steering, I must be one of the few people that still will not turn my Steering Wheel unless the car is moving even though I could do it with one finger now, It must put tremendous strain on the Steering mechanism and take years of tyre tread. 

1 minute ago, Tizer said:

My experience is the other way round, the things I have seen have been mostly Engines stopping that have caused the inexperienced drivers problems.

On the subject of Power Steering, I must be one of the few people that still will not turn my Steering Wheel unless the car is moving even though I could do it with one finger now, It must put tremendous strain on the Steering mechanism and take years of tyre tread. 

I never dry steer either. Just how I was taught.

3 minutes ago, Tizer said:

My experience is the other way round, the things I have seen have been mostly Engines stopping that have caused the inexperienced drivers problems.

Yes, I've certainly seen more posts that way round, particularly recently.

 

4 minutes ago, Tizer said:

I must be one of the few people that still will not turn my Steering Wheel unless the car is moving

You're not alone!😀 One of the many pieces of advice my driving instructor drummed into me years ago. 

I don't have any trouble dry steering.  It seems rough because it's happening while you can see & feel it.  But realistically it's nothing like the strain that's being put through the steering & suspension components while you're bouncing over potholes and expansion gaps at 70mph.  I used to dry steer regularly, one of the few things I'm good at was squeezing into tight parallel spaces...

Tyres don't last for years nowadays either...  I've had to replace more due to age related cracking or irreparable punctures than I ever have from wearing out the tread. 

 

4 hours ago, alexp999 said:

Sure, but I'm just saying they are two different issues.

nope - its just the opposite order, the cambelt self destructs trashes the engine and clogs up the vac pump - the animals that repaired the engine are either stupid or deliberately like to cause more issues and costs to their customers (likely the later)

51 minutes ago, Botus said:

nope - its just the opposite order, the cambelt self destructs trashes the engine and clogs up the vac pump - the animals that repaired the engine are either stupid or deliberately like to cause more issues and costs to their customers (likely the later)

Regardless of the cause, the engine stopping while driving causing the servo to lose pressure is not the same thing as the engine carrying on running but the vacuum getting blocked. That’s all my point was. I made this clear the conversation moved on. You don’t need to come in to every thread and try stoke things up again with your immovable opinion. 

I'm glad I sold my focus and fiesta ecoboom. Not even got a vacuum pump , or an engine. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

50 minutes ago, iantt said:

Not even got a vacuum pump , or an engine.

Still got a pesky 12v battery to cause trouble though!😀 (16.8% of EV breakdowns are down to the 12V battery according to the AA - about same as with ICE cars ).

2 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

16.8% of EV breakdowns are down to the 12V battery

Interesting. I wonder what the other 83.2% is ?

26 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Still got a pesky 12v battery to cause trouble though!😀 (16.8% of EV breakdowns are down to the 12V battery according to the AA - about same as with ICE cars ).

Yeah, that's really a problem, a 12v battery. 🤣🤣🤣

28 minutes ago, unofix said:

Interesting. I wonder what the other 83.2% is ?

Of the 1% of breakdowns being ev ( according to the AA) . The other 83.2 % will be made up of tyre punctures, remote fobs lost  keys, etc and the odd BMS, traction battery, eml light on . 

Lad at work used to work for the RAC until 12 months ago and said mostly it was 12v battery issues like petrol and diesel. 

12 hours ago, iantt said:

I'm glad I sold my focus and fiesta ecoboom. Not even got a vacuum pump , or an engine. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

You've got an electric vac pump, EVs have conventional brakes

16 minutes ago, DaveT70 said:

You've got an electric vac pump, EVs have conventional brakes

At least they won't get clogged up with bits of wet belt, though. Not sure if they all have them though, I think I've seen mention of some EVs having assistance on the pedal itself, a bit like EPAS?

 

47 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

. Not sure if they all have them though, I think I've seen mention of some EVs having assistance on the pedal itself, a bit like EPAS?

 

I know ours have (JLR)

57 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

I think I've seen mention of some EVs having assistance on the pedal itself, a bit like EPAS?

Found it!

https://press.zf.com/press/en/releases/release_54849.html