10 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Fair point I guess.  Still seems pretty unlikely though.

They should have just stuck with the external catch.

It only needs to happen once and they'd be facing mass recalls.

But I agree, nothing wrong with how they did it on Mk3.

17 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

I've got a Maypole charger.  (Think Stephen might have the same one 😉 )

And a Noco GB40 jump starter.

I do have a large power bank that can run the Maypole away from the mains but only for a few hours at a time.  Then the power bank has to be brought indoors to charge for a few hours.  I'll try it over the weekend if there's a good chance it'll work long enough to dispose of the car...  Just don't want to exacerbate health issues if it's an exercise in futility.

It's taken 3 to 4 days of 6 hours of charging via the mains with the Maypole to get our battery from 51% to 70% as of this morning @TomsFocus just to give you an idea of how long it actually takes. On chauffeuring duties again today dropped the Mrs off at work and put car back on charge.

Btw S/S actually kicked in twice this morning firstly within 1/4 mile at traffic lights and then a mile further down the road in the works car park. Thought I'd stalled it at the lights to begin with. So much for it does not work on a cold engine 😆

38 minutes ago, Wino said:

It's taken 3 to 4 days of 6 hours of charging via the mains with the Maypole to get our battery from 51% to 70% ...

Just for information, a while back, in lockdown, and non use of car, it took me almost 24 hours to get my battery back to 12.8v. Once there, I have managed it on a monthly basis with only an hour or so top up... 

The speed of the Maypole is my main gripe with it.  Not a problem for people with driveways or garages, but a pain for those of us without.  I do wish I'd bought a more powerful charger.  It's so much hassle getting the charger and either a powerbank or massive extension down & then back up the stairs that a monthly top up isn't really practical here.  I'd rather run the engine for ~15 mins every other week.

The alternator should be pumping out 10x as many amps (at least up to the limited SOC on Mk4) so I'd like to hope that'll charge more quickly if I can get the battery charged enough to jump safely.

21 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

The speed of the Maypole is my main gripe with it.  Not a problem for people with driveways or garages, but a pain for those of us without.  I do wish I'd bought a more powerful charger.  It's so much hassle getting the charger and either a powerbank or massive extension down & then back up the stairs that a monthly top up isn't really practical here.  I'd rather run the engine for ~15 mins every other week.

The alternator should be pumping out 10x as many amps (at least up to the limited SOC on Mk4) so I'd like to hope that'll charge more quickly if I can get the battery charged enough to jump safely.

I had the same issues in our previous house. Just wasnt possible without a 50m+ extension lead but then would have to sit with the car on the street whilst it charged. 

Does anyone know the scrap price of car batteries now out of interest?

I found some old scrapyard paperwork from 2012 where batteries were worth £400 per tonne.  No idea if that's gone up or down since?

29 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Not a problem for people with driveways or garages, but a pain for those of us without. 

 

7 minutes ago, Wino said:

I had the same issues in our previous house. Just wasnt possible without a 50m+ extension lead but then would have to sit with the car on the street whilst it charged. 

According to government's own stats, over 11,000 000 car owners are in similar positions so goodness knows what you'll do when you have to recharge an EV!

34 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

According to government's own stats, over 11,000 000 car owners are in similar positions so goodness knows what you'll do when you have to recharge an EV!

So shares in companies that make very long extension leads looks like a good investment 🤔

I wonder how long it will be before there is a death or serious injury caused by some one charging their EV out on the street. Will it be reported if it happens or will the media close ranks to hush it up and censor the information. No doubt the government will then hastily rush though more poorly thought through laws making it illegal to charge an EV in public without a man (or woman) standing next to the vehicle waving a red flag !! 

7 minutes ago, unofix said:

I wonder how long it will be before there is a death or serious injury caused by some one charging their EV out on the street. ...

It also opens up a whole new avenue for vandalism! A few months ago I walked past a car on an EV charge in Larne, the plug to the car had been removed and was lying abandoned on the floor. Yes, the driver may have done it, but I doubt it! 

Somewhere I read that it was going to be implemented that charging from the grid via lamppost/ streetlights ( could have been a works related bulletin from my previous line of work) and bollards yes, bollards you read it right first time 🤣 whether that's still the case I don't know.

7 minutes ago, Wino said:

Somewhere I read that it was going to be implemented that charging from the grid via lamppost...

Perfect, as long as they install one street lamp per household that has a car LOL

2 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

Perfect, as long as they install one street lamp per household that has a car LOL

There wouldnt be enough power on the entire grid to begin with. Imagine the street lights going out one by one along the road as people come home from work and put their cars on charge.......LOL

2 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

The alternator should be pumping out 10x as many amps (at least up to the limited SOC on Mk4) so I'd like to hope that'll charge more quickly if I can get the battery charged enough to jump safely.

Smart charging on all vehicles is limited to the maximum voltage that the vehicles system can tolerate for sustained periods of time. Usually that is 14.8 Volt maximum. The amount of charge the battery will take from the supply can only be regulated by increasing or decreasing the charging voltage and is not governed or restricted by the current that the supply can provide. Usually unless the battery voltage is extremely low the charging current taken by the battery will be less than 5 Amp, regardless of the potential current that could be supplied by either an alternator or a battery charger.

My battery is once again only at 62% state of charge after several short journeys yesterday, but you will see that despite the need for it to take on a decent charge the battery is only drawing 3.0 Amp from the alternator. The charging voltage is 14.70V so is approaching the maximum continuous voltage that the cars electrical system can manage. 

Thanks Unofix.  Probably a daft question but why do alternators have such high amp specs if they barely use any?

Also is that the Forscan app or another one?

1 minute ago, TomsFocus said:

Thanks Unofix.  Probably a daft question but why do alternators have such high amp specs if they barely use any?

Also is that the Forscan app or another one?

To support the heated windscreen, heated rear screen, heated door mirrors, heated seats and heated steering wheel all being on while you ask the EPAS to turn wide sticky tyres at low/no speed. 😉

 

33 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

Probably a daft question but why do alternators have such high amp specs if they barely use any?

From my own observations, when you first start one of these cars the net Charging Current can easily go into double figures for a minute or two and then gradually reduces over the next few minutes to its hobbled level, which is not very much.

And contrary to popular belief, It doesn't make any difference how fast you drive, even if the Engine is Idling and whether any accessories are switched on or not, It will still charge at the same level except maybe for a very flat Battery in the first minute or two.

The PCM seems to vary the Field Current Duty Cycle to account for the Load. The Duty Cycle Just running with the HVAC on may be only 15%, switch something else on and it will go higher. 

That is FORScan and there are useful PID's in the BCM plus some in the PCM including the above mentioned Duty Cycle and Desired and Implied Voltage leaving the Alternator and at the Battery, which which is slightly higher than the shown BCM Voltage as @Winosaid earlier. 

5 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

Probably a daft question but why do alternators have such high amp specs if they barely use any?

Most of the output from the alternator is used to power equipment on the car, for example:

Heated front screen 40 to 60 Amps

Heated seats 15 to 25 Amps

Heated rear window 20 Amps

Radiator cooling fan 20 Amps

mostly this power is direct from the alternator, only when the supply from the alternator becomes "Maxed Out" does the battery come in to play and delivers the extra power needed until the load demand reduces.

Of course after the battery has had quite an amount of current drawn from it, the alternator will provide a charging voltage of a high enough level that the battery will begin to recharge. It is important to realise that current is drawn by the battery and can not be pushed in to it. As such after a relatively short period of time (usually under 5 minutes) the current drawn by the battery will fall to around 3 to 4 Amps which it will remain at until the batteries state of charge steadily increases. As the battery SOC approaches 80% the current draw will gradually reduce to about 1 Amp. 

Anyone know what the current draw is in the MK4 when asleep?

Thanks both - knew it'd be a daft question!  

There is one major difference between the alternator charging and the Maypole charging that I can see from your replies though.  The Maypole starts charging very low (~1a), and only increases charge rate if the battery voltage hasn't increased by enough.  As the alt starts high, and then slowly drops to near the Maypoles maximum output, it should be charging significantly more quickly for the first hour or more.  And, of course, the Maypole will reset every time it looses power (when charging in increments) which will potentially add hours to an incremental charge.  I'm sure the instructions for mine say it only checks every 20 minutes before increasing ampage, although I can't see it in the PDF so either I've imagined it or the instructions have changed.

10 hours ago, unofix said:

Most of the output from the alternator is used to power equipment on the car, for example:

Heated front screen 40 to 60 Amps

Heated seats 15 to 25 Amps

Heated rear window 20 Amps

Radiator cooling fan 20 Amps

mostly this power is direct from the alternator, only when the supply from the alternator becomes "Maxed Out" does the battery come in to play and delivers the extra power needed until the load demand reduces.

Of course after the battery has had quite an amount of current drawn from it, the alternator will provide a charging voltage of a high enough level that the battery will begin to recharge. It is important to realise that current is drawn by the battery and can not be pushed in to it. As such after a relatively short period of time (usually under 5 minutes) the current drawn by the battery will fall to around 3 to 4 Amps which it will remain at until the batteries state of charge steadily increases. As the battery SOC approaches 80% the current draw will gradually reduce to about 1 Amp. 

The battery mostly acts like a capacitor in a circuit while the engine is running. A buffer/filter.

The alternator responds quite quickly but not instantly to higher load, the battery fills that gap. The alternator will also have some delay in reducing its output when the load drops and the battery will "suck up" that extra current (it's fine for a short amount of time).

That also brings me to why the constant charging current is low. Heat, batteries do not like huge amounts of current constantly being dumped in them. Lead acid batteries would boil if allowed to overheat. Lithium batteries in EVs are watercooled while they are being charged, that's how they can cope with fast charging. Even the charge cable has to be watercooled on the DC fast chargers.

2 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

Thanks both - knew it'd be a daft question!  

There is one major difference between the alternator charging and the Maypole charging that I can see from your replies though.  The Maypole starts charging very low (~1a), and only increases charge rate if the battery voltage hasn't increased by enough.  As the alt starts high, and then slowly drops to near the Maypoles maximum output, it should be charging significantly more quickly for the first hour or more.  And, of course, the Maypole will reset every time it looses power (when charging in increments) which will potentially add hours to an incremental charge.  I'm sure the instructions for mine say it only checks every 20 minutes before increasing ampage, although I can't see it in the PDF so either I've imagined it or the instructions have changed.

That is my understanding too.

These cars also have a Refresh and Regeneration Mode, one of them with similar Pulse Charging but from my experience it does not happen very often, probably time based, and it always starts off in Conventional Mode except perhaps if the car was stopped before the Refresh was finished.

2 hours ago, alexp999 said:

batteries do not like huge amounts of current constantly being dumped in them. Lead acid batteries would boil if allowed to overheat.

I have seen cars in the past with a dedicated Cooling Duct just for the Battery but I guess they would interfere with the aerodynamics and Kysor Shutters in modern cars so that may be why they are not fitted now apart from the cost. 

Had another thought last night.  Would it be safe(ish) to hang an extension lead from a 1st floor window?  Will the flex insulation be able to take the weight at the top?  It's a heavy duty JCB lead so presumably reasonably high quality.

 

Second question - If I use the jump starter with the manual override before connecting the charger - but don't turn the ignition on - will that be safe enough to allow me to unlock the passenger door without risking module damage? 

Extension lead out the window. To be honest I don't see a problem other than if there is a risk of anyone tripping over it. From an electrical point of view there should be no concerns, just keep the reel dry (big plastic bag).

Using the override button on the jump start pack is a bit of a grey area in my mind. If you could get a few hours of charge in the battery before using the override and just unlocking the door (ignition off) should be ok.

19 minutes ago, unofix said:

Extension lead out the window. To be honest I don't see a problem other than if there is a risk of anyone tripping over it. From an electrical point of view there should be no concerns, just keep the reel dry (big plastic bag).

Using the override button on the jump start pack is a bit of a grey area in my mind. If you could get a few hours of charge in the battery before using the override and just unlocking the door (ignition off) should be ok.

Thanks Unofix.  The reel will go in the car to keep it dry.  Previously put it in the passenger side footwell to keep the charger 'hub' dry as well (just croc clip leads threaded from pass door under bonnet), though that's going to have to be in the engine bay with the reel in the drivers side until I can get the pass door open.

Really don't want to have to lay across the seats again for the bonnet lever.  I would have just left the bonnet resting on the catch overnight but it's really obvious on the Mk4.  Bright yellow bonnet stay is almost luminous right across the carpark.  Determined to get the door open tomorrow one way or another before the bonnet gets shut again.

**Saturday Update**

Not in a state to lay across the seats this morning, so had to find an alternative method.  Managed to get a leg over the centre console and slide across into the passenger seat.  Slightly better for my digestive system...less so for my undercarriage.  

But more importantly, I can confirm there is absolutely no need to dismantle the bonnet lever.  The handle isn't bending at all.  There's more than enough space between the pillar and the door to open it.  As far as I can tell, this is just Fords idea of a joke!   

 

Maypole is a intuitive as ever though.   Stuck on 6v mode, regardless of how many times or for how long I press the button.  Doesn't appear to be charging either.  Will go and have a look after 30 mins to see if it's doing anything.