10 hours ago, KenM said:

Have been trying to find opening and closing degrees for this engine but haven’t found them yet, there is definitely an overlap of vale opening and BDC and TDC but not a large opening. Only one cylinder is on compression stroke and one on exhaust stroke per rotation

Hi Ken 

Thank you, sorry this one has lost me a little lol 

6 hours ago, Rogue_Ray said:

Hi Ken 

Thank you, sorry this one has lost me a little lol 

Sorry for the confusion it was a Mondeo estate diesel 2016 reg and when it was doing 80mph there was an orange spanner on the dash saying Powershift fault the error was cleared but is it a easy affordable fix??

cheers 😊

Ray what I was trying to work out is what valves would be open when you rotate the crank, as per the post from unofix im sure you won’t find a position rotating the cam shaft where all valves are closed so when you turn the crank at least one valve would stop it tuning.

23 minutes ago, KenM said:

so when you turn the crank at least one valve would stop it tuning.

There will be two valves open, one inlet and one exhaust.

If we imagine the camshaft rotated exactly half way between the 12 O'clock position and the 3 O'clock position, this would give the maximum chance of all valves being fully closed. HOWEVER, in reality there is generally an overlap of around 15^o between one valve opening and another closing so in practice there will never be a time when all valves are a 100% closed.

It could be that there is just enough clearance between the top of the piston and the valves that with the camshaft in the perfect position and two valves are just slightly open, that there is enough clearance for the pistons not to contact with the valves.

9 hours ago, Rogue_Ray said:

Hi Tom 

I'm using a small hole through the crank ring sensor aligning with the engine hole at the 12 oclock position. Everything I've watched seems to use this one. 

Yes, that is the correct way to do it.  The cam also only has one locking hole at about the point in your picture (1.30 on a clock).  So it looks like they are locked in the right places.  The fuel pump lock doesn't affect the engine timing, although it is worth checking that still turns freely.  Occasionally the pump seizes up which strips teeth off of the belt, though I don't think that could be mistaken for a piston/valve contact feel.

The flywheel pin on the earlier models was only really meant to counterhold the flywheel while removing and refitting the crank bolt.  I'm guessing you have to lock the flywheel using a toothed tool in the ring gear instead now?

I'm not sure if this helps any. Perhaps Tom could check and correct me if it's wrong ?

7 minutes ago, unofix said:

I'm not sure if this helps any. Perhaps Tom could check and correct me if it's wrong ?

Tbh I'm doubting everything I thought I knew about the 8v DV6 now.  May be better for others to take over in this thread.  

Is that diagram definitely for the 8v engine?  I've just just pulled this head pic from ebay, which only shows one cam locking hole at around 1.30 position.

That one looks correct Tom

1 hour ago, TomsFocus said:

Is that diagram definitely for the 8v engine?

Like all good things I now can't find the site that I got that from 🤔

Here is another site with a "similar" timing diagram

https://www.ntn-snr.com/sites/default/files/2017-04/kd459.42_-_preconisations_montage_demontage_en.pdf

Also yet another version that was posted by @iantt back in 2018, but that might not be the same engine (Focus Mk3 2012 model).

 

16 minutes ago, unofix said:

Like all good things I now can't find the site that I got that from 🤔

Here is another site with a "similar" timing diagram

https://www.ntn-snr.com/sites/default/files/2017-04/kd459.42_-_preconisations_montage_demontage_en.pdf

Also yet another version that was posted by @iantt back in 2018, but that might not be the same engine (Focus Mk3 2012 model).

 

Yes, Ian's is the right one for the 8v engine.  I think your earlier diagram is for the 16v from the Mk2.  As is the one on that website (listed as Focus II).

As there's some doubt over bent valves jamming the turning over of engine. I would take belt off. Turn crank to approx 90 degrees either before or after tdc so all pistons are halfway up or down bores. With pistons out the way , turn the cam sprocket a full 360 to see if it turns ok without the pistons in the way. If it doesn't turn 360 the valves are bent. If it does , turn the cam to the correct position then turn the crank to the correct timing position. If still no good, a possibility of a bent Conrod stopping the crank rotating 360. 

9 hours ago, unofix said:

There will be two valves open, one inlet and one exhaust.

If we imagine the camshaft rotated exactly half way between the 12 O'clock position and the 3 O'clock position, this would give the maximum chance of all valves being fully closed. HOWEVER, in reality there is generally an overlap of around 15^o between one valve opening and another closing so in practice there will never be a time when all valves are a 100% closed.

It could be that there is just enough clearance between the top of the piston and the valves that with the camshaft in the perfect position and two valves are just slightly open, that there is enough clearance for the pistons not to contact with the valves.

This must be whats happening as its 100% clearing with no belt. I'll retry when weather is better though and see if i can figure where lobes are by taking rocker cover off

10 hours ago, KenM said:

Ray what I was trying to work out is what valves would be open when you rotate the crank, as per the post from unofix im sure you won’t find a position rotating the cam shaft where all valves are closed so when you turn the crank at least one valve would stop it tuning.

I think you are right but there must be enough clearance in 1 position or i wouldn't be able to turn the bottom by hand..

6 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

Tbh I'm doubting everything I thought I knew about the 8v DV6 now.  May be better for others to take over in this thread.  

Is that diagram definitely for the 8v engine?  I've just just pulled this head pic from ebay, which only shows one cam locking hole at around 1.30 position.

Don't lol you are correct, the diagram is close in terms of locations of pulleys but timing holes are out.

Mine is like the picture of the block, top timing is around 01:30, fuel pump around 03:00 and bottom is around 12:00. 

Don't lose faith Tom 🤣

35 minutes ago, iantt said:

As there's some doubt over bent valves jamming the turning over of engine. I would take belt off. Turn crank to approx 90 degrees either before or after tdc so all pistons are halfway up or down bores. With pistons out the way , turn the cam sprocket a full 360 to see if it turns ok without the pistons in the way. If it doesn't turn 360 the valves are bent. If it does , turn the cam to the correct position then turn the crank to the correct timing position. If still no good, a possibility of a bent Conrod stopping the crank rotating 360. 

Thanks ian, will give this a go when weather backs off 😁

I don't know if it is possible with these engines, but, when Renault diesel engines snap the cambelt, the camshaft sprocket can snap the key, allowing the gear to turn slightly relative to the camshaft. 

When this happens, if you don't realise, and time the engine using the timing pins, the engine will not turn over due to the valves hitting the pistons because the cam timing is actually wrong. 

I came across this when I took the timing belt off a running engine to fit a crank oil seal & a new timing belt. Someone previously had timed the engine by setting the camshaft with the valves on cylinder one "on the rock", then setting the crank so that cylinders 1 & 4 were at TDC and fitting a new belt. Needless to say, a new cam sprocket was fitted & timing set properly before it was allowed back to the owner!

Sorry if this is a long winded post, but I would think of removing the camshaft and crank sprockets to make sure a key hasn't broken.

15 hours ago, Alan G H said:

I don't know if it is possible with these engines, but, when Renault diesel engines snap the cambelt, the camshaft sprocket can snap the key, allowing the gear to turn slightly relative to the camshaft. 

When this happens, if you don't realise, and time the engine using the timing pins, the engine will not turn over due to the valves hitting the pistons because the cam timing is actually wrong. 

I came across this when I took the timing belt off a running engine to fit a crank oil seal & a new timing belt. Someone previously had timed the engine by setting the camshaft with the valves on cylinder one "on the rock", then setting the crank so that cylinders 1 & 4 were at TDC and fitting a new belt. Needless to say, a new cam sprocket was fitted & timing set properly before it was allowed back to the owner!

Sorry if this is a long winded post, but I would think of removing the camshaft and crank sprockets to make sure a key hasn't broken.

Hi Alan 

Certainly a different one and not been checked so will so what I can see around this area, thank you for the response. 

Well not good news but wanted to say thank you to everyone. 

 

I'm at the time when i don't think its worth investing anymore time, time for an upgrade lol 

The top pulley was fine, rechecked timing 4 or 5 more times and still hitting so there must be internal damage somewhere. Interesting its the same cylinders springs that are down after rotating the bottom 360 so assuming it's something in 2 or 4, both had the broken rocker arms at the start. 

 

 

 

Will have some buts for sale if interested though lol 😆