Transit Courier 1.5Tdci Euro6.2 Constant regening DPF ok

[dsdom]

Hello all.

Any ideas what would cause a 69 plate Courier Limited 1.5tdci Euro 6.2 to constantly try regens, despite not having a blocked DPF (New DPF fitted) Vehicle has just had new engine due to engine failure (Caused by oil contamination). Ongoing issue, dealer has tried 18 months to cure and been unable to. Deler fitted new injectors, new DPF and now new engine.

What criteria instigates a dpf regen? Vehicle tried 7 regens in 150 miles since engine and DPF replacement and oil level rise already way above max line on dipstick.

Dealer mechanic says pressure sensors on DPF are reading correct and not instigating the regen.

Cheers.

[TomsFocus]

Frequent regens are normal for this engine.  That's the only way they could get it to meet Euro 6 standards without Adblue.  oil changes are recommended at 12 months or 10k miles on this engine as it is fully expected to contaminate the oil in that time.

Are you doing short, cold journeys and stopping the regens before they complete?

[dsdom]

No, I do a mixture of town and A-road driving as I go from job to job. It's not unusual for me to do a 45 minute drive at least once a day.

The dealer tried to blame this on 'driving style', but i the vehicle was fine for the first 33 months. They have since admitted they were wrong to say so, without apologising, I might add.

7 regens in 150 miles is not something which can be blamed on driving style especially when the dpf is brand new. The standard regen cycle is 301 miles as confirmed by the dealer mechanic.

The more i research this vehicle the more I come to the conclusion the engine is not fit for purpose. After all, all of the new couriers have Ad Blue system, if the system mine had wasn't a problem, why wouldn't they still be using it?

I also suspect Ford have done some covert operation with regards to software updates just prior to the warranty period running out - Knowing a new vehicle would not have an MOT for the first three years and as such the emissions would not be tested, I believe the standard regen cycle during this period would have been greater than 301 miles, closer to 900 miles.

They have refused to give me a list of changes the software update made, as well as refusing to roll it back.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[unofix]

You could always try using FORScan and down load the 'AsBuilt' data for your van. Then you could reload it to any of the modules you think have been changed like the PCM, BCM etc. etc.

[TomsFocus]

You've obviously done more research than many first posters on here do.

It's not clear whether the 7 regens all completed?  I was expecting most had failed, hence the major increase in oil level.

The car isn't psychic, it doesn't know when you'll be doing a longer journey.  Mine used to get triggered regularly on a short trip to the supermarket.  I'd fail it (knowingly) and let it regen on the next long trip.  But could easily fail it 4 times before that.

The 301 miles will be the maximum between regens.  That's the failsafe regen that's meant to be triggered only if the pressure sensor doesn't trigger a regen before then.  On pretty much every car with this engine it will be much less.  I wouldn't be surprised to see a completed regen every 100 miles on this engine.

So with that in mind, the best thing you could do now would be to record live data of measured DPF pressure differential, estimated soot loading, estimated ash loading, and regens to see what the figures are when it's triggering a regen.  I know it's hassle you probably don't want but the only other option is to keep going back to Ford.

Regarding Adblue - most drivers (and fleet buyers) wanted to avoid it and would be put off vehicles with it.  I'm not sure if it was a purposeful avoidance by Ford for more sales, or whether there were parts shortages that prevented it being fitted to the early ones, but I agree it does seem very odd that they didn't get Adblue from the launch of this engine.

[dsdom]

Thanks TomsFocus.

I'm unsure if the regens completed. But, I suspect at least some of them did. Driving from Framlingham to Copdock should be long enough for a regen to complete?

If the car isn't psychic (its not called Christine, after all!) why is there not a Dashboard light to at least warn the driver that a regen is taking place and that continuing a/the journey is advised? Although this would be inconvenient to the driver, it would go some way to avoid all the hassle created by constant regens and oil dilution - especially on a vehicle with such a pathetically small sump.

I'm getting the feeling the design of the vehicle is not fit for purpose - especially when its called a 'Courier' and marketed with pictures of parcels in the back. How many parcel delivery drivers do constant stop-start journeys? Its ridiculous!

I'm preparing to start legal proceedings because what they have sold me isn't up to the job - couple that with the dealer doing things like draining the risen oil/Diesel mix and calling it good (after oil level rose so high it covered the air filter and MAF sensor by coming up from/through the sump gases pipe) - not even bothering to change the oil in that scenario is down right neglectful and they should know better.

After changing the engine and DPF, they called me in to collect it. First thing I do is check the oil level and its already above the max level - It had risen that much during their own test drives to see if the engine fix was good.

It's a Lemon.




 

[iantt]

It is a lemon. After sept 2019 the oil capacity went from 3.8l to 6.2l to cope with the frequent regens of 6.2. Emmisions . my Mondeo 2.0 TDI 6.2 would passively regen  every 35miles or so. 

[TomsFocus]

13 hours ago, dsdom said:

Thanks TomsFocus.

I'm unsure if the regens completed. But, I suspect at least some of them did. Driving from Framlingham to Copdock should be long enough for a regen to complete?

If the car isn't psychic (its not called Christine, after all!) why is there not a Dashboard light to at least warn the driver that a regen is taking place and that continuing a/the journey is advised? Although this would be inconvenient to the driver, it would go some way to avoid all the hassle created by constant regens and oil dilution - especially on a vehicle with such a pathetically small sump.

I'm getting the feeling the design of the vehicle is not fit for purpose - especially when its called a 'Courier' and marketed with pictures of parcels in the back. How many parcel delivery drivers do constant stop-start journeys? Its ridiculous!

I'm preparing to start legal proceedings because what they have sold me isn't up to the job - couple that with the dealer doing things like draining the risen oil/Diesel mix and calling it good (after oil level rose so high it covered the air filter and MAF sensor by coming up from/through the sump gases pipe) - not even bothering to change the oil in that scenario is down right neglectful and they should know better.

After changing the engine and DPF, they called me in to collect it. First thing I do is check the oil level and its already above the max level - It had risen that much during their own test drives to see if the engine fix was good.

It's a Lemon.

Fram to Copdock should be more than long enough.  Funnily enough, Ipswich to Fram was one of my regular regen trips when I had the Focus and needed to do a longer trip after several short ones.

People have been asking why there's no regen progress light for 20 odd years.  The answer is that DPF regen is meant to be an entirely passive process requiring no driver input at all.  In reality it doesn't work like that.  I could always tell when a regen was occurring, but other people are less sensitive to minor changes in engine note etc.

Most of the delivery vans here are electric now.  Much better suited to multi-drop than Euro 6.2 diesels.  Though not so convenient for longer distances and rural areas.

Sadly poor experiences at dealerships aren't uncommon nowadays but that is one of the worst I've read lately.  

[iantt]

The new courier only comes in 2 flavours , petrol and electric and an optional pedal power for the royal mail. 

[iantt]

Rumours there's portable solar power too. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[dsdom]

8 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

Fram to Copdock should be more than long enough.  Funnily enough, Ipswich to Fram was one of my regular regen trips when I had the Focus and needed to do a longer trip after several short ones.

People have been asking why there's no regen progress light for 20 odd years.  The answer is that DPF regen is meant to be an entirely passive process requiring no driver input at all.  In reality it doesn't work like that.  I could always tell when a regen was occurring, but other people are less sensitive to minor changes in engine note etc.

Most of the delivery vans here are electric now.  Much better suited to multi-drop than Euro 6.2 diesels.  Though not so convenient for longer distances and rural areas.

Sadly poor experiences at dealerships aren't uncommon nowadays but that is one of the worst I've read lately.  

Thanks for your reply again Tom.

Yes, I too am aware of a regen happening, usually when coming to a stop and feeling a slightly rumbly idle accompanied with subtly higher revs (idle is usually 790rpm, when regen its more like 950rpm).

But, it would be nice to know when the regen started and when it is likely to end - I could plan more easily this way.

What I cant understand is that for the first 33ish months I didn't have an issue or any error codes. It was only after a long trip to Cornwall that the first errors showed up - I'm thinking that the prolonged regen conditions caused multiple regens and being toward the end of the 12 month cycle it hadn't had an oil change in a while, so the dilution was probably bad before the journey commenced. I had no idea or understanding of this symptom/problem then. I've had to learn after a multitude of failed visits to the dealer.

However, since the software update (which happened just prior to its first mot) the issue has been increscent. It shows up literally every month or two.

Do you have any advice regards a final solution for me? If the dealership offered me a full refund of the purchase price, I would purchase a new adBlue or Petrol version from them.

Cheers!

[TomsFocus]

4 minutes ago, dsdom said:

Do you have any advice regards a final solution for me? If the dealership offered me a full refund of the purchase price, I would purchase a new adBlue or Petrol version from them.

I agree it seems odd that it was fine for the first few years.

Maybe the EGR or injectors are worn now and producing more soot in the DPF.  Or maybe the fault has been worsened by the PCM update.

You could wait to see if another PCM update gets released to fix any bugs in the previous update.

Or try running your own live diags to get a longer term idea of what's triggering the regens, soot loading, DPF pressure, and how many are being completed or failed.

Or, as you suggest, change it for something else.  Considering you've had over 3 years use from the van I can't see any chance of getting the full purchase price back.  But I don't get involved in legal stuff, so maybe someone else can advise on that.

[dsdom]

Ford have replaced the injectors three times (in the space of a few months).

They have also removed and cleaned EGR Valve and Ducting to head, inlet tract and throttle body.

Apparently the Ford technical specialist is visiting it again toward the end of this week.

Meanwhile my £18,000 investment sits useless on the forecourt again. It's over 6 months now I have not had my vehicle whilst they attempt to address the rising oil levels, waiting for various parts to arrive such as the new DPF and then the new engine.

Running my own live diagnostics would involve me purchasing 3rd party software I presume?

I'm not bemoaning your input - I appreciate you taking the time to reply. but, the whole saga is beyond a joke from my perspective and at some point a line has to be drawn.



 

[unofix]

8 hours ago, dsdom said:

Running my own live diagnostics would involve me purchasing 3rd party software I presume?

Hi, the software you need is called FORScan. It is actually free but personally I'd recommend buying the licence which is only £12 which gives a few extra functions, and you get technical support from FORScan if you have any questions. There are 3 different versions available, (1) Windows version for use on a laptop (2) Android phone version £7 (3) iPhone version £7.

You need the correct lead or dongle to be able to connect to your van's OBDII port.

FORScan: https://www.forscan.org/download.html

vLinker FS cable £33(for Windows): https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vgate-vLinker-Adapter-FORScan-MS-CAN/dp/B0952P4MLP

vLinker FD dongle £29(for android): https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vgate-Bluetooth-vLinker-Scanner-Diagnostic/dp/B08H82WC8L

vLinker FD+ dongle £36(for iPhone): https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vgate-Bluetooth-vLinker-Scanner-Diagnostic/dp/B08H8JHWP2

 

[DaveT70]

On 3/17/2024 at 7:43 PM, dsdom said:

Yes, I too am aware of a regen happening, usually when coming to a stop and feeling a slightly rumbly idle accompanied with subtly higher revs (idle is usually 790rpm, when regen its more like 950rpm).

But, it would be nice to know when the regen started and when it is likely to end - I could plan more easily this way.

Make sure you give it some revs when regenning, it's not so much about speed or distance but engine speed.

Ideal regen RPM is 3,800, with a short blip to the rev limiter to clear the soot.

If it's out of warranty now and only seems to get worse since the PCM was updated, get FORScan and roll the software back in the PCM

[dsdom]

UPDATE:

Apparently, the Dealership and Ford rep still couldn't find any reason for the constant regenning, so at my request (via one of the decent mechanics) they tried rolling back the update. 

After several hundred miles of test driving the engine was producing less soot, and didn't regen once - so they say. Problem solved.

I now have the van back and have fingers crossed the ordeal is over. 

The update was done on the day of it's warranty running out, also the day of its first mot, almost 18 months ago. Dealership told me the update was to do with Nox Emissions. Well, there's a surprise.

Very suspicious, potential covert behaviour from Ford imo.

I'm yet to have the vehicle tested for emissions, despite requesting the dealership to do so - they didn't.

Will keep an eye on the oil levels weekly.

Absolutely done with the dealership now and will NEVER go there again unless the fault hasn't been fully cured.

Now i have a decision as to whether i should proceed with legal action. The dealership carried out the update on Ford's behalf. They didnt offer me the option to refuse it. I've had 18 months of utter ball-ache, days and days off work, hours upon hours of wasted time arguing with them that it wasn't my 'driving style' - they loved to claim it was, despite no evidence suggesting so. Time after time being spoken to like an idiot. The director of the dealership couldn't even read a ***** dipstick - stating it was not over the max level when it was almost an inch over. The risk of driving their courtesy vehicles for almost 6 months whilst mine sits on the forecourt loosing value.

The state of my vehicle diminished every time they had it for a prolonged time. Numerous scrapes and scratches to the body work. The interior seats and upholstery looking dirty and fatigued. The engine bay rusting and looking older than it should.

I just hope they haven't done anything else to sabotage it. I literally wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.

I've taken the time to sort all the scratches and marks on it myself - there's no way i'm going to leave it with them to do. If you want a job done well, do it yourself. Certainly don't expect the dealership to do a good job imo.

I'll update this thread in a few weeks after doing some miles in her.

As for others, if you are having similar issues, you must enquire about what updates they have done to the software and why - although the 'why' will be like getting blood from a stone. They seem to do these updates behind a shroud of secrecy.

On top of all that, I'm now making a 'mydieselclaim' as according to preliminary data, my vehicle has been affected by the upcoming Ford diesel-gate law suit.

Good luck all.

Peace.





 

[unofix]

5 minutes ago, dsdom said:

you must enquire about what updates they have done to the software and why - although the 'why' will be like getting blood from a stone. They seem to do these updates behind a shroud of secrecy.

Software provided by Fujitsu and policy updates controlled by Paula Vennells, what could possibly go wrong ?

[TomsFocus]

10 hours ago, dsdom said:

The update was done on the day of it's warranty running out, also the day of its first mot, almost 18 months ago. Dealership told me the update was to do with Nox Emissions. Well, there's a surprise.

I'm yet to have the vehicle tested for emissions, despite requesting the dealership to do so - they didn't.

The dealership won't have any equipment to test NOx.  Diesel MOT is still only a smoke density test.  It must have passed that if they MOT'd it before returning it after all this time.

Good to hear you've got the van back though I am surprised to hear it's done hundreds of miles without a regen.  Might still be worth getting Forscan to check how often it's doing a regen yourself.

[dsdom]

Ah man!

Drove today and had 'exhaust filter overload message'. Done as you guys suggested, extended my journey and drove 20 minutes at 60mph in 3rd gear (3.5k revs) to initiate and complete a regen.

A few hours later checked the dipstick and the oil level is already over the max again. It was two notches under (and already looked diluted to me) when i collected her Friday. Now its over the top of the dipstick, way past the last notch. I've done 60 miles and average mpg at 50.5 which is way lower than it should be. No wonder considering how much is seeping into the sump.

Back to the dealership tomorrow and off to get legal advice. I don't care how much it costs me. I'm going to do it out of principle.