Looking forward to a battery Focus?

[StephenFord]

I just do not understand this current obsession with ‘battery’ cars. Yes, I understand the ‘green’ issue, but battery cars are surely not a competent answer to personal transportation.

1. Currently, 750,000 vehicles/year have a roadside breakdown running out of fuel. This is despite a working fuel gauge and a flashing red light saying, ‘honestly mate, you need to full up’. Not a big problem as the break down guy on call out simply gets a gallon of fuel out the back of his van, and off you go. How is he going to get a can of ‘electric’? This to me is  a huge issue.
2. The first owner will enjoy a clean fresh battery. By the time the car is 10+ years old, (about when I and many other motorists pay attention to buying a vehicle), the battery will need replacement at a cost of £10,000+ virtually making the car scrap!
3. Manufacturing a battery car is anything but green with large use of Lithium Ion batteries.
4. In a crash, the potential of having 400V running through the metal has already killed breakdown recovery personnel.

I can understand ‘hybrid’ where the engine is dually fed with petrol & electric, but a battery on it’s own just doesn’t make sense to me.  The government is likely to ban the sale of petrol cars from 2032 which seems ages away, but as an old *****, trust me, 12 years will pass very quickly. Most of us on this forum love cars and are enthusiastic on their upkeep and even modification.  Thankfully the whole issue won’t really trouble me as I’ll be underground by then, but you young’uns,  you really looking forward to a world of battery cars?

[Eric Bloodaxe]

I share your concerns - hope to be still around in 2032 to see what happens, though!

I do find the governmental push for battery electric to be quite worrying. It's almost as if they had decided to back Betamax rather than VHS a few years ago. Then they were both quickly made obsolete by technology no-one had thought of - first DVD, then hard drive recorders and now on demand streaming via the internet.

 

 

 

 

[StephenFord]

The real life 'government' comparison though is their policy push years ago for diesel. I'm old enough to remember when diesel was half the price of petrol (no one wanted it). Then government involvement announced that diesel was the environmental saviour, they subsidised car sales, then mopped up on fuel tax by doubling it's price. Then were proved catastrophically wrong to the extent where diesel is now the leper of car fuel, and everyone wants them banned and off the road. Basically, if government gets involved, we're f**ked...  🤣

[Eric Bloodaxe]

6 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

Basically, if government gets involved, we're f**ked...  🤣

Unless we can form a government of sensible people from this forum!😀

Yeah, I was going to continue my post by referring to the diesel fiasco, before being summoned by the Mrs to attend to a washing machine crisis** - seems to be ok now, fingers crossed! 

**PS yes, it's powered off ok - as I suspected, problem caused by inserting an out of balance load (massive towel and two bathmats)!

[Guy Heaton]

Trouble is the only "green" fuel is hydrogen, and tech for that to be widespread is a long way off.  You need a green way to obtain it and an infrastructure around to cover it.

And then there's the issue of it being colossally dangerous in a crash.

I could have an electric Focus, I have a short commute.  If they allow it to be as fast off the mark as an electric can be it could be quite fun.  I imagine those quick Teslas are quite enjoyable, press the accelerator, instant squirt.

All new cars are going to be at least mildly hybrid, there's no going back.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

16 minutes ago, Guy Heaton said:

All new cars are going to be at least mildly hybrid, there's no going back.

Yes, I'm quite interested to see what the Ford mhevs coming shortly will be like. I can see the logic in mild hybrid - storing energy that is otherwise wasted in braking etc, then using it to assist the i/c engine in high demand situations. I'm still a bit unclear what is meant by phasing out petrol and diesel by a given date. Some reports refer to phasing out petrol and diesel cars ( which I take to mean phasing them out entirely) , some talk of "wholly" petrol and diesel cars which presumably would still permit hybrids.

 

 

[Luke4efc]

I'm no lover of electric, however I don't agree with some of those points.

1) this might teach these people a lesson not to let your range go so low. Instead of a quick fill up and go like it never happened, you have to be towed back and put up with the inconvenience as a sort of punishment lol.

2) battery replacements don't cost over £10,000. I'm pretty sure you can get the leaf done at Nissan for less than half that price (and a refurb unit for half that price again). Whilst expensive, it doesn't have to be done often. Theres EV's out there with over 150k on the clock and have only lost 5% capacity. 

The leaf has been out for nearly 10 years now. There are very few that have needed battery changes so far (and that's old technology batteries too!). The cost of them has shrunk massively too since the start of the decade, you'd like to think batteries are going to be even more affordable in another 10 years time when they probably are due a change. I'd imagine there will be a few aftermarket solutions by that time too.

3) yep! Although I will say the other metals used in batteries have a far bigger environmental impact than the lithium itself. I'd imagine many batteries will be 100% recyclable when a lot are ready for scrapping.

4) and it's likely to explode lol.

Might sound like I was disagreeing, but I still say EV's wont work. The largest issue by far is the fact we won't have the electric to charge them with! We only just make enough power to keep the lights on and the kettle boiled. Never mind make a crap ton more to keep all these batteries charged too. You're incredibly naive if you think a few solar farms here and a few wind farms off the coast is going to be enough to power millions of electric cars. The UK use over 45 billion Litres a year of fuel. When you write it like that it doesnt sound a lot, but 45,000,000,000 litres seems a whole lot bigger. We need many more big power stations before we can subsidise that amount of fuel.

Whoops I wrote more than I thought haha

[Guy Heaton]

Well aye, that's the issue.  If we all went electric tomorrow we'd kill the grid.

Ford have brought out the Puma mild hybrid.  I'm interested to see what those engines feel like in a Fiesta.

[TomsFocus]

3 hours ago, StephenFord said:

 

1. Currently, 750,000 vehicles/year have a roadside breakdown running out of fuel. This is despite a working fuel gauge and a flashing red light saying, ‘honestly mate, you need to full up’. Not a big problem as the break down guy on call out simply gets a gallon of fuel out the back of his van, and off you go. How is he going to get a can of ‘electric’? This to me is  a huge issue.

Umm, the AA do already carry cans of electric...they have to 'fix' thousands of flat batteries a year already.  Yes it'll take a bit longer to put driving charge in instead of just starting charge, but most people run out of fuel near home/filling station anyway and it doesn't take long to stick 5 miles of electric in...anyone breaking down miles from anywhere because of no fuel is an idiot for not planning ahead!  The fact that 750k people run out is baffling in all honesty.  I've never run out in a decade of driving...I'm not rich, I do push it down into the red, but it's not rocket science to work out how far you can push it.  

There are also loads of cars on the road already, diesel Fords in particular, where running out requires a manual fuel system prime after refilling so that's 5+ minutes anyway.  And that's if you can find the right easyfuel funnel to even get the fuel in, I doubt the AA carry one for every model.

 

Personally I'd prefer a diesel hybrid rather than full electric.  That's the best of both worlds, silent and emission free around town up to 35mph, but plenty of diesel torque on the dual carriageways whilst charging the battery.  There's also no DPF problems because the diesel engine would never do short, slow journeys, and no worry about the range either.  I wold like to plug in overnight on cheap rate electric, though not possible at my current flat.  Don't think I want an electric Ford at all though, they've waited too long to start looking into electric, other manufacturers have got a lot more experience with it already. 

[F0CUE]

I will miss the nice sounds that come from cars all we will hear is sounds like kettles all over the place. Imagine what it would be like here if the forum still exists in 2032. There will still be wind deflectors, alloys, tints and body kits but no nice sound. The first mod would be..

Here we have a classic style focus st bolt on exhaust with build in 100% waterproof bluetooth Speakers with auto charge directly from the car. Add the button to your accelerator pedal and plug the USB accessory into the stereo then choose your sound. The sounds feature sports mode, pops n bangs, turbo whoosh and many more 😂

[TomsFocus]

2 minutes ago, F0CUE said:

I will miss the nice sounds that come from cars all we will hear is sounds like kettles all over the place. Imagine what it would be like here if the forum still exists in 2032. There will still be wind deflectors, alloys, tints and body kits but no nice sound. The first mod would be..

Most of us drive diesels...I'd take a vacuum whine over diesel clatter any day!  

[mjt]

Personally I'd love to have an EV. In addition to the massive reduction in fuel costs I would imagine that only minimal servicing is needed so all operating costs should be sigificantly less. One aspect of EV's that I never see mentioned, though, is what impact the energy required for cabin heating and AC has on the range.

There are interesting battery developments on the horizon which could well give range equivalent to fossil fuel without the overheating problems of lithium ion.

Ian, with regard to the loss of the noise, as someone who lives on a heavily used commuter route I look forward to the demise of the internal combustion engine, especially in commercial and agricultural vehicles!!! However, like Stephen, I'll be pushing up daisies before that happens.

[Guy Heaton]

Damn right.  I'd happily see the back of the stupid droney heaps the local chavs drive.  I love the sound of a good V engine, but not a mindless drone.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

2 hours ago, Luke4efc said:

Might sound like I was disagreeing, but I still say EV's wont work. The largest issue by far is the fact we won't have the electric to charge them with! We only just make enough power to keep the lights on and the kettle boiled. Never mind make a crap ton more to keep all these batteries charged too. You're incredibly naive if you think a few solar farms here and a few wind farms off the coast is going to be enough to power millions of electric cars. The UK use over 45 billion Litres a year of fuel. When you write it like that it doesnt sound a lot, but 45,000,000,000 litres seems a whole lot bigger. 

I often get the impression that some of these green types really do believe electricity just comes out of a socket, in a similar way to folk who believe bacon (or whatever) just comes from supermarkets!😀

Have to say though, that when I first got a licence, I didn't think that 50 years later I'd still be driving round in a car with the same old (albeit greatly improved) internal combustion engine. I did think, though, that we might have come up with a cleverer alternative than carting a ton of batteries round!

 

 

[Comares2001]

Having stopped yesterday at an A1 service area,with about 12 recharge points theres another issue that will need to be addressed. There were 6 Tesla cars parked up with their drivers who were looking very bored whilst waiting for their cars to charge. We may need to have larger car parks and entertainment facilities to stop everyone going "stir crazy" !

[pragmatix]

Having recently tested a Leaf, nice car to drive, but on cold weather and hills the mileage was very poor to say the least, put the heater on and and try a hill the mileage plummets, in fact I couldn't get over 65 miles out of it had to recharge to get home, that was sitting below the speed limit.

might be fine in town use but not for highland Perthshire to get any mileage I had to have the heating off back to travel rugs over the knees and car coats.

[StephenFord]

21 minutes ago, pragmatix said:

... I had to have the heating off back to travel rugs over the knees and car coats.

Gosh, that reminds me of my mums old car, a 1958 Morris Minor LOL

[mjt]

Yes, and I remember the old "fug stirrer" in my first Mini, with two small clear patches in the condensation pouring down the screen . . . .

[pcaouolte]

The range doesn't need to be a problem, just stick a petrol generator in the boot.

[mjt]

8 hours ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

I did think, though, that we might have come up with a cleverer alternative than carting a ton of batteries round!

Bear in mind that these batteries are replacing a pretty heavy engine, gearbox and lead-acid battery, not to mention a heavy full tank of fuel. Electric motors, preferably in each wheel, plus the electronics to control them will only be a fraction of that plus lithium-ion batteries are only a fraction of the weight of lead-acid.

[nicam49]

In the 60s BL prototyped a steam generator driven mini, I understand that from cold to running was under 2 minutes, with clean exhaust... wonder what killed it off.. 🤔

[Eric Bloodaxe]

8 minutes ago, mjt said:

Bear in mind that these batteries are replacing a pretty heavy engine, gearbox and lead-acid battery, not to mention a heavy full tank of fuel. Electric motors, prefereably in each wheel, plus the electronics to control them will only be a fraction of that plus lithium-ion batteries are only a fraction of the weight of lead-acid.

Yes, I was exaggerating a bit there (though in the case of some of the bigger SUV types, perhaps not by so much). Difficult to get a like for like comparison but I think something like an e-Golf (claimed range 144 miles)  weighs around 350kg more than an i/c version. You are always carrying the weight of the battery of course, irrespective of the remaining charge, whereas an i/c car gets lighter as you drive.

Like others, I'm actually quite keen on the idea in theory (an electric car would be ideal for my Mrs's use), but still waiting for the purchase price to fall and range to rise.

I keep reading of forthcoming leaps in battery technology which will increase efficiency, reduce weight and cost, as well as reliance on rare materials from countries with a poor record on workers welfare. Unfortunately, like medical breakthroughs in treating all sorts of horrible conditions, they always seem to be "just a few years away", but are certainly necessary both for vehicle use and a solution to the problem of how to store intermittently produced solar and wind generated electricity.

[TomsFocus]

3 hours ago, nicam49 said:

In the 60s BL prototyped a steam generator driven mini, I understand that from cold to running was under 2 minutes, with clean exhaust... wonder what killed it off.. 🤔

How do you make the steam?  Not sure burning coal in a mini is a great idea!

Of course if you could make the steam with a tiny nuclear reactor under the bonnet that would be fantastically clean!  No CO2 produced at all!

 

[Ennvoqation]

Driven a Jag I-Pace recent whch was a rather interesting experience. One aspect of driving electric is you have to be more pro-active in how you drive as you need to relearn how to drive to scavenge as much energy back to extend your range. It's also very different from automatic, even if there's some similarities. How you accelerate is more akin to a F1 car, without the gear lag and that can be terrifying if you're not used to it (and fun when you are especially for over-taking). There's no delay when you hit the throttle. The bonus to my friend is he has driven about 6k-7k in the car since he's had it and spent around £50 in charging despite travelling between Aberdeen to Glasgow/Edinburgh. He's got the knack of finding free points to charge up and has solar power at his house.

Even if you build a electric charging grid I can't see the average person waiting at a motorway for 40-60 min (or even longer) to charge the vehicle, that's even if there's charge points and they're working. That's the main killer for long distance driving. Even Tesla can't cover the distance I need to travel sometimes (about 400+ miles in a day) and I can't justify the downtime for charging a car, so I drive a diesel and that's not likely to change over the next 5-10 years. The cost of electric vehicles is prohibitive, and all electric cars are treating their customers as guinea pigs. 

There's several important aspects about batteries to consider:

1) Technologically batteries don't degrade as people think, you'll probably lose at most about 5-10% in five years going by some of the EV channels, and most batteries have a reserve they allocate to compensate.   

2) Current battery tech has stalled, we're still stuck on various Lithium tech despite the advances in chemistry and other areas you've still got the power to weight ratio restrictions. Whilst there's a lot of alternative power research in labs, much has still to be proven let alone prove effective to be mass produced.

3) Recycling batteries,They can be re-used for green energy initiatives such as power banks for homes with solar, wind etc. Also the laws will likely catch up to force the manufactures to recycle just as we currently have to recycle e-waste. Most batteries can be broken down to pull the working cells from the bad. The other problem is most batteries are integrated into the vehicle frame, and require specialist equipment to remove or even fix.

4) Charge times, they have to bring this down to parity or have more acceptable charge times.  Waiting around in services is a recipe to blackmail people to spend a fortune in motorway areas.

5) Some minerals, such as cobalt, are difficult to source ethically both from a ecological standpoint as well as from a sociological. 

6) On board equipment, mostly it doesn't affect the range that much. A/C usually only decreases range about 20 miles on a journey based on my friends i-Pace. Most electric vehicles come with intelligent power management like A/C zone control, low power modes etc. The ICE system will indicate what the power hogs are allowing you to make informed decisions about how power is used.

7) Cold weather is a killer on range, and you have to spend the time to 'prep' the vehicle when it's charging before you cam drive off in the cold mornings to warm the motors/interior to reduce the load. Range loss can be up to 50% in some cases which can be a deal breaker.

As for my own view, if you live in a major urban area electric becomes more palatable but if you live in a rural area then for many it's a no go. I suspect a lot of people will end up with dual vehicles one for puttering about and another for long-distance travelling. I had a friend who drove a Twizzy to and from work during the week but if needed to drive beyond it's range or carry loads then he used a second car. It worked out cheaper to run both, but Renault screwed the pooch (as do other companies) by forcing you to buy the car then hire a battery on top of that. I've recently considered Twizzy as a runabout (surprisingly fun to drive, if you can live with the suspension and limitations).

Hydrogen is probably a better long term bet, as the technology is fairly robust and reliable but in the UK I think there is about 2 public fuel points. I suspect Hydrogen will be available for those needing range endurance and electric will be mostly relegated to inner city and urban areas especially for those who have access to charge points street side or their garages.

 

After that long spiel, both technologies are dangerous. Hydrogen is highly explosive but Lithium is more dangerous over a longer time period, and can burn at temperatures exceeding 1,000c and near impossible to extinguish with conventional fire fighting kit, and even if you put out the fire it can spontaneously combust a week later (or longer depending on tech).

 

Oh and this:

 

 

[iantt]

37 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

How do you make the steam?  Not sure burning coal in a mini is a great idea!

Of course if you could make the steam with a tiny nuclear reactor under the bonnet that would be fantastically clean!  No CO2 produced at all!

 

Reactor ok, but the car would outlast the radiaton contaminated owner .lol