For city buses and route delivery trucks, battery electric makes sense.

in many cases using petrol or diesel delivery trucks that have stop-start technology or a hybridized drivetrain will net huge fuel savings and emission reduction.

I will try to find the report that United Parcel Service released on the cost savings on their fleet from just going to Stop-Start tech on their route delivery trucks. It was quite stunning.

stop-start had it’s issues when we first started to run vehicles with the technology on our durability routes. The Lead acid and gel-mat batteries were just not up to the task of repeated cranking with added loads of wipers, radio and headlights in use simultaneously.

Functionality has improved in the past half decade.

 

There are sensible options for EV, but we don't do sensible in this country.

🤣

4 hours ago, Jimpster said:

There are sensible options for EV, but we don't do sensible in this country.

In America the government forces the citizens to pay several thousand dollars for every EV sold. We even get to pay a tax subsidy on the sale of used EV’s! Even though we don’t want them, we pay for them. That seems pretty bonkers to me. Of course, that doesn’t include the vast array of front loaded tax subsidies that the government has been showering across several different industries in an effort to create a product that doesn’t have a sufficient supporting infrastructure or even reasonably strong consumer demand!

An interesting snippet of what is happening over here with a significant number of car dealers, I presume that they are not just Ford dealers, as it has taken the form of a group letter to the Biden administration regarding the mandate for EV acceptance in America being too much too soon.

A group calling themselves “EV voice of the customer” represents approximately 3,900 dealers has sent a letter to the government asking it to reconsider its decision on EV mandates in terms of the implementation timeline.

Much of this story is behind paywalls, so I don’t yet have a clearer picture of if this group is an actual effort to throttle the plan of the government or maybe more of a strategy for the dealership groups to get more traction in the future lawsuits that they will have to initiate against the manufacturers for their rather heavy handed and expensive requirements for dealerships to sell their EV products that are not actually “selling”.

The next problem that is brewing as we stare into our screens is the very serious issue of resale value of the EV as more buyers grow disenchanted and find out that they will lose fifty percent of the cost, or more, of their EV if they sell them outright! Even worse, people are finding that the dealership they bought the EV from fourteen months ago is not willing to buy it back at any price.

I think that dealers are trying to find a way to get out of being stuck in the middle of an implosion in demand and the continued supply of new EV cars. The dealers are going to be the pinch point in the friction between the manufacturers and the buyers.

I’m watching this one with some interest! Because dealerships are really the “First customer”. Being the first customer has a tremendous amount of expense and planning involved in getting to the point where they are accepting new cars off of transport trucks.

 

3 hours ago, Scottman said:

I’m watching this one with some interest!

Interesting stuff, Scott,  considering our own ZEV mandate kicks in come the New Year:

The mandate sets minimum annual targets, starting with a requirement for 22% of new cars sold in 2024 to be zero emission, as originally proposed. (Gov.UK)

While I suspect a 22% figure is likely to be achieved one way or another** in that first year, the question still remains how can you mandate that proportion of sales unless you have the same proportion of willing buyers.

Just reading a review of the latest facelift of a Vauxhall Corsa for example. A perfectly reasonably specced 100ps version capable of 120mph, 0-60 in under 10secs, and 54mpg plus, is around £22k. As the reviewer asks, why would a private buyer, with no company car tax incentives etc, shell out at least £10k more for an electric one?

Same is going to apply to a Puma EV, which, from comments I've seen so far, is also likely to start around £10k more than the ICE versions.

(**Back in the day I used to be pretty good at what you might term "the art of manipulating statistics to show the desired result without actually lying" myself!😀

Connecticut has pulled its EV proposal to adopt the California standard that bans the sale of petrol vehicles by 2035. Being a Democrat controlled state, Connecticuts lawmakers had broad bi partisan support for stepping back in the face of growing concerns about the lack of infrastructure and generating capacity. I was shocked when I heard that it was Connecticut that is the first state to come to their senses! It is a very liberal bastion and is not historically one to ever step out of the liberal line of thinking or policy.

This could be compared with seeing a large crack appear in a previously believed solid concrete dam. The entire scheme is beginning to unravel.

So mining for EV batteries is not as bad as the oil lobby make out

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/01/do-electric-cars-have-problem-mining-for-minerals

I know it's a cliche, but it made me chuckle 😀

19 minutes ago, Turvey said:

I know it's a cliche, but it made me chuckle 😀

Mm, I've seen the  edition you can buy at Luton airport gift shop. 

On 12/1/2023 at 12:25 PM, Mark-UK said:

So mining for EV batteries is not as bad as the oil lobby make out

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/01/do-electric-cars-have-problem-mining-for-minerals

Interesting article and a very good point there which applies to recycling of materials generally, not just batteries.

 

The recycling process is still in development. North America is just getting to the point of ground breaking for the factories that will have the capability to build the numbers of batteries at a scale that would then allow the industry to determine what processes will be required to economically reclaim the components and elements of any given battery type.

Another issue that will have to be confronted regarding battery modules that have to be replaced is the problem of storage, shipping and handling of a battery that is either absolutely depleted or maybe has an internal defect or malfunction that might have serious effect on the stability of the battery.

many logistics companies will refuse to handle any potentially flammable materials. Just imagine what a railroad car or a cargo van loaded up with 200 failed or defective battery modules would look like on fire. Only one battery module could ignite all the others. Then you have an intense fire rolling through a densely populated area of a city or maybe a through a small rural community that is not equipped to deal with a fire that cannot be extinguished by conventional methods. The repercussions of handling an energy dense material that requires very specific treatment is just now being understood.

39 minutes ago, Scottman said:

The repercussions of handling an energy dense material that requires very specific treatment is just now being understood.

These things undoubtedly take time. It looks as if the question of how to recycle wind turbine blades is finally being resolved:

https://electrek.co/2023/02/08/wind-turbine-recycle-blades/

Found this article quite interesting as I occasionally drive refuse and recycling trucks in my job.

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/lunaz-upcycled-electric-vehicle-bin-lorry

14 minutes ago, Turvey said:

Found this article quite interesting as I occasionally drive refuse and recycling trucks in my job.

 

Yes, I saw that too.  I think various publications all cribbed a press release such as this one I posted earlier:

https://www.biffa.co.uk/biffa-insights/biffa-and-lunaz-sustainable-electric-lorry-partnership

It looks as if Autocar  at least did a bit more work on it than some, though.

In the meantime at COP28 ...

 

If an oil Baron can lead a climate change conference isn’t a contradiction in ideals than I expect to see a cattle rancher promoting a vegan diet any day now!

Wandering round the online newsfeeds before bed lastnight. Allegedly a Japanese and European team have cracked the basics of Fission.

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Ftech%2Fnuclear-fusion-energy-reactor-japan-b2459281.html%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR11HNFF-n9v4lMCCf0l3p20FLXS8LLgWSfO4RjtM4YuyqHAgc8J9mWwOQw&h=AT35VpgqE-fQgsFtLffwVHgNKy5zgbdW543zNB0bni_AjNjIoMGkfu_3uOc4xIyqbrbbO_b0O1LiSJI0djwzZwMi1YVG7Q4bGL-NTKkgySeXP5n2IE31pbq_LGmEQ91rAanX9A

Can someone please explain to me a few inconsistencies in environmentalists' views ?

Two in particular, but there are many others.

If we are in a "climate emergency" why do they oppose the Severn barrage ?
That is one of those very rare things : a reliable and pedictable source of sustainable energy.I have read it's because they don't want the wading birds habitat to be disturbed, but I thought we were in a climate emergency ?

Why are these extremists (like the infamous Swampy) against HS2 when electrified train travel is just about the most environmental way to get about ? Surely they shouldn't be campaigning against it they should be volunteering to build it for free.

The only explanation I can think of is what they really want is  Nett Zero by "behavioural change". I.e. people simply travelling less (or ideally not at all) for instance. In fact I think that was the gist of Swampy's disjointed answer when asked. 

Just so long as we all know exactly where they want us to go with this Nett Zero stuff.....

It’s not really about climate change,Justin. It’s actually about controlling the economy and human activity. They would prefer that we are not able to move around freely or travel any great distances.

 

3 hours ago, Scottman said:

It’s not really about climate change,Justin. It’s actually about controlling the economy and human activity. They would prefer that we are not able to move around freely or travel any great distances.

 

Sounds like an American conspiracy theory to me 🤔 I won’t ask who you vote for. 

8 hours ago, Justin Smith said:

If we are in a "climate emergency"

I think  wildfires and floods , like we’ve never seen before (not on this scale ) Not to forget the ice caps melting. All as predicted, is proof enough. 

28 minutes ago, Alex.S said:

I think  wildfires and floods , like we’ve never seen before (not on this scale ) Not to forget the ice caps melting. All as predicted, is proof enough. 

Just as temperature drops in the 1970s meant an ice age was imminent. Or the measurement of acidity in the rain was certain proof of doom. Or the hole in the ozone layer in the 1980s predicted the end of mankind. The planet has been on a path of destruction since I was a kid in primary school, 60 odd years ago.

The thing is, making wild predictions is fraught with issues, especially predictions about the future!

I remember the acid rain theory. We were taught that England was sinking into the sea and Scotland was rising! lol   I think flooding will be more of a threat to uk than wildfires. Conspiracy theories in general tend to come from the elderly and Americans. lol 

9 minutes ago, Alex.S said:

I remember the acid rain theory. We were taught that England was sinking into the sea and Scotland was rising! lol   I think flooding will be more of a threat to uk than wildfires. Conspiracy theories in general tend to come from the elderly and Americans. lol 

Speaking as one of the 'elderly' (!), sadly I find the youth often indulge in conspiracy theories, especially when they increasingly and misguidedly ban free speech on university campuses! Indulging in modern phenomena of cancel culture.