46 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

Tom, Brexit was won on 52% to 48%, a win is a win LOL 🤣

Yes, that's precisely the issue.  If every vote is going to end up roughly around 50/50, that's not a great way to do things.  

I don't know of a fairer system btw, was purely an observation lol!

26 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

... If every vote is going to end up roughly around 50/50, that's not a great way to do things. 

Works well in my household, if we have a 50/50 decision on what to watch on TV, she wins! LOL

51 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

 

I don't know of a fairer system btw, was purely an observation lol!

I've often wondered if it might better if it were like jury service. Just select 650 people (provided they are sane, etc) to serve as MPs.

1 hour ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

 

you still get Muppets with PR,😀

Conscience makes me add that I don't regard all politicians as muppets. I have been acquainted with several local politicians and found them pretty decent people, tbh. 

One of our friends is currently a JP, Chair of her Parish Council and a candidate for the County Council. It's hard to see why people like her do it, taking in account the stick that they get, so I guess we should be grateful they do.

 

 

1 hour ago, StephenFord said:

Works well in my household, if we have a 50/50 decision on what to watch on TV, she wins! LOL

That's alright, you can just stream whatever you like when she's out!

 

4 hours ago, mjt said:

Although I don't agree with all your views Stephen you are on the nail here. It makes no sense to shut down all our indiginous coal, oil and gas production and then have to rely on imports from the likes of Vladimir Putrid. I follow the heritage rail industry and they are having real problems sourcing suitable coal. They contribute tens, if not hundred, of millions to the economy, often in the most deprived areas, yet they're being sacrificed so that a few idiots can proudly claim the UK is 'carbon neutral'. Likewise our steel industry, which I consider to be a strategic asset, is having to source foreign coal because proposals to open new mines are being thrown out.

So, moving back to the  other thread😀😀.

I'm in favour of transitioning to greener forms of energy, but to do that you need to have something to transition from in the first place.

Couldn't agree more on the coal - we're still using it, but adding to the pollution by importing as well.

Earlier on this year we had a cruise departing from Newcastle and were amazed by the amount of imported coal on the docks, turning the old saying on its head.

Yeah, I like heritage railways too - when I was a kid trainspotting was very popular probably because it was cheap. But I guess they're being hit by the price of diesel also - can't see a Deltic being particular good on mpg!

 

 

Just glancing at the "Energy Dashboard" https://www.energydashboard.co.uk/live this morning, you can see the issue of needing a "green" method of providing base load.

At 8.20am only 5% of electricity was coming from wind, 63% from gas.

24 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

At 8.20am only 5% of electricity was coming from wind, 63% from gas.

Oh dear, it's probably because 'wind' electricity only happens when it's windy, but not too windy! In stormy weather, it's all shut down! Just like solar only is collated under very median type circumstances. A while back when we had 40c for 2 days in southern UK, it was too hot to generate solar. 🤣

54 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

Oh dear, it's probably because 'wind' electricity only happens when it's windy

They are already talking about adding solar panels onto the wind turbine blades so that when the wind is not there the blades automatically track the sun and generate electricity via the panels. In tests, the panels only produce about 10% of the turbines' wind power but that is expected to increase as solar panels get more efficient.

22 minutes ago, Carl123 said:

They are already talking about adding solar panels onto the wind turbine blades so that when the wind is not there the blades automatically track the sun and generate electricity via the panels.

They'd still be better off drilling for more oil 🤣

Yep, you can build all the wind and solar you like (and I have no problem with that) but you still need to provide for when the sun doesn't shine or the wind doesn't blow. (Or, as Stephen mentions, when you have the "wrong" type of wind or sun.)

So if we want a totally zero carbon solution your practical alternatives to bridge that gap are nuclear and a large amount of storage capacity (for when you have a surplus of wind or solar) in the form of batteries or pumped water storage such as Dinorwig or Ben Cruachan. 

This is the issue that we have failed to address.

15 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

So if we want a totally zero carbon solution ...

The overriding issue is really, if 'net zero' was ever achieved, would climate change suddenly stop??

25 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

The overriding issue is really, if 'net zero' was ever achieved, would climate change suddenly stop??

If humans ever achieve 'net zero' then nobody will ever know. Humans will be extinct, but on the plus side the dolphins will be safe. 😀

 

50 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

if 'net zero' was ever achieved, would climate change suddenly stop??

I would say "no", as climate change (hotter and colder) has been a historical phenomenon (how many dinosaurs have you seen lately?) and I'm fond of pointing out the terraced hillsides in parts of the Yorkshire Dales where mediaeval monks grew grapevines!😀

I don't, though, see any reason why we shouldn't make sensible efforts (with a very big emphasis on sensible) to reduce the human contribution to the issue.

Of course, all it would take is for the earth to shift slightly on its axis, as has apparently happened several times in the very distant past, and we'd all be toast (or blocks of ice) anyway!😀

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

I would say "no", as climate change (hotter and colder) has been a historical phenomenon...

Yep, bring on nuclear! It's just amazing that China, India, USA look at our futile and inferior attempts at producing 'renewables' & haven't jumped on the band wagon and followed our, 'lead' 🤣

1 hour ago, StephenFord said:

The overriding issue is really, if 'net zero' was ever achieved, would climate change suddenly stop??

No.  It would be slowed to a speed where humans, animals and plants could better adapt to it. 

2 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

No.  It would be slowed to a speed where humans, animals and plants could better adapt to it. 

I have already adapted. I have central heating for when it's cold, and I can open my windows when it's warm...

1 minute ago, StephenFord said:

I have already adapted. I have central heating for when it's cold, and I can open my windows when it's warm...

Lucky you.  Perhaps people living on flood plains could make big coats for their houses.  Or farmers could invent a way to grow crops in a drought.  Or Turtles could find a way to procreate when they're all female...  The effects of climate change extend a lot further than your house, or indeed the UK.

22 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

The effects of climate change extend a lot further than your house, or indeed the UK.

Indeed, and as I keep saying, what we do here in the UK has dam all effect anywhere else...

14 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

Indeed, and as I keep saying, what we do here in the UK has dam all effect anywhere else...

That's simply not true.  Everything we do here has a wider impact.  Everything we buy from China, India or the USA keeps funding their manufacturing processes, funding dirty energy sources, funding deforestation, etc.

20 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

That's simply not true.  Everything we do here has a wider impact.  Everything we buy from China, India or the USA keeps funding their manufacturing processes, funding dirty energy sources, funding deforestation, etc.

OK, following that argument, we should put an import embargo on goods from China etc, at least that would make sense even though we'd cut our nose off to spite our face.

But the UK religiously following a 'net zero' policy, and banning potentially 37 Million car owners from buy ICE cars (as well as all the other associated cr*p) is simply stupid...

Read the 'cradle to grave' report on electric cars, and you'll see that their is no saving to the 'planet'. Of course, the exchequer will lose out £Billions on fossil fuel duty, and if people already whinge that 'windmills' are ugly, wait till they see the 1000s of car charging points that will litter the landscape...

We should be finding ways to use renewable energy and sustainable processes to produce affordable items in the UK so that we are no longer reliant on cheap goods from places like China. 

Of course it takes time to develop anything new.  But nothing ever gets improved if no one puts up the money & time in the first place.  The UK led the world with the industrial revolution, making us still one of the top 5 all-time world polluters even 200 years on, so we should now be putting time and effort into reducing the global impact that we effectively started.

People will still be allowed to buy ICE cars after 2030, just not new ones.  So that 37 million drops to about 2 million a year...  ICE cars are already too complicated and expensive to maintain long term now.  As electric tech improves, EV's will become more popular anyway.  I've already said I don't agree with assigning a random date for stopping ICE sales without more planning, so won't go there again.  

The whole world needs to be working towards net zero as one.  Despite Brexit, we are still attached to the same planet.  It will take a huge societal lifestyle change, not just replacing things like for like.

 

7 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

The UK led the world with the industrial revolution, making us still one of the top 5 all-time world polluters even 200 years on, so we should now be putting time and effort into reducing the global impact that we effectively started.

 

That's like saying the person who developed the science in splitting the atom, should be held responsible for the invention of the atom bomb, and should be forced (or their country) to make reparations for the damage it caused in Japan. Or the guy who invented the gun (ironically Chinese\) should be held responsible for every firearm ever developed, and every person killed by one subsequently.

11 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

ICE cars are already too complicated and expensive to maintain long term now.  As electric tech improves, EV's will become more popular anyway.

Ironically the reason many have become so overly complex is the government pressure (worldwide) put upon them to become ,'cleaner'.

13 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

We should be finding ways to use renewable energy and sustainable processes to produce affordable items in the UK so that we are no longer reliant on cheap goods from places like China.

That simply isn't going to happen. We have developed ourselves as a 'service' economy, and simply making stuff is the ethos of nostalgia. I remember buying my 1st ever transistor radio over 50 years ago, 'made in Japan'. Realistically, why would we go to the trouble of creating any industry making things when we can already buy them from somewhere else.

Tom, over the years we have agreed on numerous things on this forum, I'm afraid we have now hit a topic where we simply have different opinions on, though I'm sure we can disagree without being disagreeable... 👍

3 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

We should be finding ways to use renewable energy...

 

As if planned, this is in today's Belfast Telegraph. Hydrogen powered buses from a company a few miles from me. That is almost certainly the genuine transportation fuel of the future, not batteries...

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ballymenas-wrightbus-to-supply-hydrogen-cell-technology-to-leading-australian-bus-operator-42003052.html

5 hours ago, StephenFord said:

Realistically, why would we go to the trouble of creating any industry making things when we can already buy them from somewhere else?

Because doing so puts us at the mercy of people who don't share our view of the world. The West is currently doing it's best to prevent countries like Russia and China getting access to the latest high-technology developments because they would like to use it to force us to adopt their view. China, in particular, has been trying for years to make us heavily dependant on them so they can apply economic pressure on us. I think at long last some politicians are waking up to that fact. We need to concentrate on doing business with countries that have a similar world view to us.

I think Tom summed things up nicely in his last post. Electric propulsion is so much simpler, cleaner and potentially more reliable than IC it's inevitably going to take over. Maybe lithium batteries will turn out to be not the ultimate power source and something like fuel cells will win out but fuel-burning engines have had their day.

18 minutes ago, mjt said:

Because doing so puts us at the mercy of people who don't share our view of the world. The West is currently doing it's best to prevent countries like Russia and China getting access to the latest high-technology developments because they would like to use it to force us to adopt their view. China, in particular, has been trying for years to make us heavily dependant on them so they can apply economic pressure on us.

 

Nearly all 'Apple' products are made in China, and for some reason, the West seems to be addicted to them. The other major brand, Samsung phones are mainly manufactured in China & Vietnam, of which China has an enormous influence over. My 1st ever smartphone I chose just a few years ago was a British made one (Wileyfox) who sadly are now defunct. We simply do not have a manufacturing base to even remotely compete, and consumers mainly could care less where their product is made. As long as it's affordable and of reasonable quality.

Yes, it would be great to have a UK based manufacturing base, but even Dyson shipped his operation out because it was noncompetitive to make stuff here.