Matrix heater leak - What to do?

[forestureds]

Hi peeps erm so I am total novice with cars and my garage have diagnosed a leaking matrix heater. (Repair cost at £934)

I have heat from the heater and there is no leak inside the passengers footwell the cars valuation is about 2200 its done 110000 miles.

How dangerous is this problem as warmer weather here in the uk is around the corner and can live without using the heater except maybe demisting the windows.

I tried k-seal a week ago but still i have coolant dropping down all tho very minimal im just wondering if its something I can live with if i do not use the heating in the car? I presume this will also mean not using the heater keep the car cooler inside in summer?

Is it correct that if the heater is not used then the coolant will not drop and the car will be fine?

My garage said the car is still ok to use on short journeys and that I could still use the heater alltho the car is booked in with them a month later for a full repair.

Any thoughts on what to do? 

Sorry if i sound noobish but i am 😞

Regards

Rick

p.s the pics are of the day after i used k seal and emptied the coolant using a turkey baster lol and then refilled with new coolant, the second pic is a week a later but was using the heater in the car for the following week after using the k seal.

Edited February 1, 2023 by forestureds
more info

[DaveT70]

I think you know the answer.

Rad weld actually inside the heater matrix (not the system) is your best bet.

Remove the top heater hose (when cold) and pour a bottle of rad weld directly into the matrix, reconnect the hose and run car.

Keep a good size bottle of ready mixed coolant in the boot, keep an eye on the level every day and just drive it

[forestureds]

Thanks for reply dave, is this easily done e.g I can just open the bonnet and find the hose? easy to disconnect and connect again? will radweld 100% seal the leak?

Any tools required?

thanks

rick

[DaveT70]

You'll see the two heater hoses running from the bulkhead to the engine, remove the hose from the engine, which is just a jubilee clip (I hope) and pour the rad weld in.

Reconnect and top up.

It may not fully work but if you keep an eye on the level then I wouldn't worry

[forestureds]

Ok dave cheers sounds easy enough...... 1 more question though how much radweld do i pour in?

Halfords do a bottle of 250ml for less than £10 will that be enough and do i sue the whole bottle?

Cheers

Rick

[DaveT70]

Yep. whole bottle

[StephenFord]

I've had 2 x leaks on my heater matrix caused by a £4 seal. If it ever goes again, I'm getting it properly repaired as per below. That does sound a very steep charge! I would take it to an independent garage who are use to 'fixing' things as opposed to a dealer who mainly unplug components and put in new ones...

 

[forestureds]

Interesting Stephen!

Thing is for me I have no coolant leak inside my car? 

I only know that my coolant is going down slowly which I presume means a very small leak?

Waiting for a mobile mechanic to call me about a possible bypass if the radweld straight into the heater matrix does not work.

Thanks for the advice though.

Regards

Rick

[DaveT70]

2 hours ago, forestureds said:

Interesting Stephen!

Thing is for me I have no coolant leak inside my car? 

I only know that my coolant is going down slowly which I presume means a very small leak?

Waiting for a mobile mechanic to call me about a possible bypass if the radweld straight into the heater matrix does not work.

Thanks for the advice though.

Regards

Rick

Yes, you can bypass, easy peesy, but I didn't recommend that as you will end up with no heating

[forestureds]

Sorry dave it was suggested to me by a friend if the radweld does not work then to stop the leak the bypass will work.

As its soon to warm up here in the uk heating will no longer be needed until next winter and so hopefully I can just recconnect the heater matrix then and limp through next winter? 

Regards 

Rick

p.s When I turn on my heating i can smell the sweet smell of the coolant for about 30 seconds and then it goes away?

Does that mean anything?

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by forestureds
more info

[unofix]

1 hour ago, forestureds said:

As its soon to warm up here in the uk heating will no longer be needed

That's better than the jokes @Rondy tells 🤣

[VFR800]

How do you know it's not a head gasket issue? Any white smoke? Have you done a coolant contamination test?

[forestureds]

I had it diagnosed by my garage I have used for about 7 years.

Regards

Rick

[rd457]

On 2/1/2023 at 12:55 PM, forestureds said:

Hi peeps erm so I am total novice with cars and my garage have diagnosed a leaking matrix heater. (Repair cost at £934)

...

Is it correct that if the heater is not used then the coolant will not drop and the car will be fine?

Engine coolant is pumped through the engine and out via two paths before looping back in again. (I'm ignoring the expansion tank for this description). One of these loops passes through the radiator, the other loop passes through the heater matrix. The purpose of the radiator loop is obviously to get rid of heat. The purpose of the heater matrix loop is to allow for engine heat to be reused for passenger compartment heating. A valve is used to open/close the radiator loop depending upon temperature, such that flow through that loop is blocked when the coolant is too cold (like when the engine is started) to help the engine get up to "normal operating temperature" faster.

I'm not aware of there being any valve on the heater matrix loop, I believe coolant just constantly flows through it. A fan blows air over the heater matrix to deliver warm air into the passenger compartment. I'm not certain on the details of how the temperature and fan speed controls work together for heating, but presumably the temperature setting has some effect on the speed of this fan?

So essentially, no, I don't believe that "not using" your heater will stop it leaking if it's leaking in the heater matrix loop. However, if it's just a small leak then I wouldn't be particularly worried, just keep an eye on the coolant level in the tank and top up as required until you can get it fixed. (Make sure to either top up with "ready-mixed" coolant, or if using "concentrated" coolant that you dilute it with an appropriate amount of distilled/de-ionised water).

On 2/1/2023 at 2:40 PM, forestureds said:

Thanks for reply dave, is this easily done e.g I can just open the bonnet and find the hose? easy to disconnect and connect again? will radweld 100% seal the leak?

I have no experience with radweld but I'm sceptical whether trying to add it to the heater matrix directly would make much difference. We certainly cannot say with 100% certainty that doing so will successfully plug the leak.

I would also not say that it would be easy to do. There are two heater matrix hoses within the engine bay. One from the top of the engine to the firewall (the dividing wall between engine bay and passenger compartment), and one from the firewall to a lower point on the engine. The former is the "in" hose to the heater matrix, the other is the "out" hose. (the heater matrix itself is located within the passenger compartment, under the dash). I'm not sure whether or not you have a Mk2.5 or Mk3 and how much the Mk3 differs from my Mk2.5, I can only describe the following based upon my Mk2.5. The hose connections at the firewall end of these hoses on the Mk2.5 use a very unusual connector that can be a huge pain to disconnect. When I once disconnected mine it required very careful use of a hammer and a piece of wood to undo the lock mechanism. It may be the same for a Mk3. If wanting to add the radweld to the heater matrix at this end you'd also need a bit of suitably sized flexible hose and a funnel. The engine end of the "out" hose just uses a "spring hose clamp", but it's located under the alternator and very difficult to reach. The engine end of the "in" pipe also just uses a "spring hose clamp" and is easier to reach, but still not easy (for a novice DIYer) being located behind the coil pack.

You've also then got to consider which side of the heater matrix (in/out) is best to add it, depending both upon direction of coolant flow and location of the leak.

I think that this "add directly to heater matrix" concept is a lot easier said than done and may not even make any difference.

16 hours ago, StephenFord said:

I've had 2 x leaks on my heater matrix caused by a £4 seal. If it ever goes again, I'm getting it properly repaired as per below. That does sound a very steep charge!

My understanding is that there are two different designs of heater matrix, one where its pipes extend all the way to the firewall, and one, like yours, where they stop short of it and a pair of short pieces of pipe are used to span the remaining distance. I read in one of the threads you pointed to that Ford may have started with the latter design in the Mk2, then switched to the former design later in production, then switched back to the latter design for some reason in the Mk3. I also saw a youtube video where a mechanic was saying something about it but I've forgotten what he said exactly.

For the latter design, indeed the quoted price would be outrageous if they're just needing to replace the o-rings via an easy access point, but they may have quoted based upon the idea that they may be replacing the entire heater matrix, which would be a hug job involving removal of the facia. In that case the quote would be more reasonable considering current pricing.

11 hours ago, forestureds said:

Sorry dave it was suggested to me by a friend if the radweld does not work then to stop the leak the bypass will work.

...

p.s When I turn on my heating i can smell the sweet smell of the coolant for about 30 seconds and then it goes away?

Does that mean anything?

I think your friend doesn't fully understand the nature of the situation. Refer back to my description above regarding the unusual connectors that connect the engine-to-heater-matrix pipes to the firewall. Yes in theory you could detatch these two pipes from the firewall and connect them together to bypass the heater matrix, but I think that this is another case of easier said than done. Firstly you've got to wrestle with undoing the stupid locking mechanisms to actually get them disconnected, which is do-able. But then you've got to deal with the fact that the special locking connectors are permanently fixed on the end of the hoses, so you've have to get a bit of connecting hose that's wide enough to go over these connectors, yet whilst being able to clamp down evenly on the hose behind them... Or you need a bit of hose small enough to jam into the ends of these hoses, pushing it in far enough that you can clamp down on it behind the special connectors, yet without damaging the special connectors and still being able to remove it later...

Regarding the 30-seconds of sweet smell, as mentioned above, there's a fan that blows air over the heater matrix to deliver hot air into the passenger compartment. The heater matrix is located under the dash. I would suspect that there's just a build up of vapour from the leaking coolant, and when you turn on the heating, the fan is blowing the built-up vapour cloud out into the passenger compartment.

Note that coolant (a mixture of antifreeze, diluted water, and additives) is very poisonous. It can be sweet smelling, making the idea of drinking it attractive, so some manufactures add a bitter tasting substance to help stop children/pets in particular from doing so. If I were you I would be rather concerned about breathing in the fumes of this poisonous substance. Maybe opening the windows at least would be advisable. Note that the basic FFP1 type DIY masks are not likely to be of any help, since this concerns gas vapours not dust, so you'd need suitable gas filtering masks if considering such PPE to protect you from the vapour until it's fixed.

[forestureds]

Wow thanks Rd ok I really am no good with these sort of things anyway and have little to no confidence of being able to do it myself.

I will monitor the situation for now and keep the coolant topped up hopefully I can get through to next winter but if not will save the pennys and get the job done properly as I have had a fair bit of work done on the car since owning in the last several years.

Thanks for all your inputs though much appreciated!

Regards

Rick

[rd457]

No problem.