Breaks noise question / diagnosis. ABS?

[jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci]

Prolly not specfic to ford / fiesta but I have a 2009 Fiesta TDCi Titanium.

I think there's an issue with my ABS or my breaks. There are a few symptoms... please pardon my sound effects its hard to describe!!!!

1. There's a very faint swish noise. This builds up while driving over about a minute getting louder, then it stops for a few seconds and then starts building up again. Sounds like it's coming from the front wheels. You have to have good hearing to hear it!

2. If the breaks get hot - like if I'm in a hilly area and doing lots of downhill, a different sound starts - more of a swish-swish-swish-swish sound which is louder as the breaks get hotter. This is loud enough that even my deaf old dad can hear it. The swish sound is in time with the speed of the wheels (and not the rev of the engine) - one swish per revlolution of the wheels - so im sure it's coming from them. This sound goes away once the breaks cool down.

3. The breaks are still effective, the breaks stop the car as they should!

4. Ive had the wheels off and I can't see anything obvious although the wheel hubs do look a bit rusty I think thats normal for a 15 year old car. I took the car into the garage and asked them to check it out and they said the breaks looks fine to them

5. So I started ignoring it but now the big issue that has made me worried to keep ignoring it. I was doing 70 on the M1 in the wet and a carrier bag blew in front of me. On a reflex I hit the brake pedal sure a bit too hard, and my ABS kicked in (I got the drdrdrdrdr sound of the ABS). I released the pedal immediately cos I realised it was just a bag but ... the ABS continued to engage, and brought the car to A COMPLETE FLAMING STOP on the motorway. Luckily i didnt get rear ended. Once the car was totally stopped, I was able to accellerate away again.

6. I'm pretty sure this didn't used to happen, I have breaked hard enough to engage ABS before and the car would Go again as soon as I release the pedal.

7. I have tested the ABS a few more times and it does this every time now, the car will come to a total stop before I'm able to go again.

8. Have to say, I'm also not really impressed with the stopping distance.

MOT is coming up next month and to be honest it's all looking a bit worn out so prolly time to get a full new set of tyres, shocks, breaks and rotors... in fact maybe that's the whole problem???

otherwise maybe I should just look into taking out the fuse to disable the ABS, I think that might be actually safer than the current situation.

Does anyone have any ideas or advice as to what the hell is going on with my breaks??? TIA

[jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci]

Looking at my tyres they are all different brands and differently worn and I think that might be the main problem with performance. I'm thinking I should get some decent quality name brand tyres and see if that makes a difference.

I have also had one rim repaired after hitting a pothole, and i think i have a slow leak on one of my other wheels. the roads around here are cr*p.

So im thinking about downgrading the 16" alloys that the car came with to 14" steel rims. Cheap 14" rims with 175/65 R14 Continental tyres can be had for 130 quid each. That's not much more than JUST the tyre if I get Contentals to fit the current alloys (195/45 R16) which are 110 each.

Thoughts?

[Danny cj]

By the noise you have explained..I would check the Caliper pistons as the might be getting stuck from gritt or rust..maybe a torn rubber boot stopping the pistons from retracting or the sliders ..or the part that the pads touch the Caliper..they maybe rusted or contaminated stopping the pads sliding back and causing friction/heat build up

Dan

[orangecurry]

On 2/11/2024 at 11:23 AM, jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci said:

MOT is coming up next month and to be honest it's all looking a bit worn out so prolly time to get a full new set of tyres, shocks, breaks and rotors... in fact maybe that's the whole problem???

They are called 'brakes' - but apart from that, sounds like you should replace the discs and pads first and go from there.  I recommend Autodoc to source your parts.  If the car is a keeper, I also recommend Brembo coated discs - the hats are coated; quality discs, they last forever.  Money well spent.  The below link may be the ones for your car, but use your numberplate and also measure your existing disc diameter to be certain.

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/brembo/8714080

Also as above have a good inspect of the pistons - brush off all grit as you push them back into the caliper - ensure they are free-moving, and the boots are not distorted/torn.

The swish swish noise is probably uneven pad material build-up on your knackered discs.

But yes your poor and mismatched tyres will be why you can't stop, and it's possible that these tyres are causing the ABS to take the wrong actions in an emergency situation.

Here's an excellent website for finding out which tyres are actually any good, balanced against your budget.

https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2023-Tyre-Reviews-Summer-Tyre-Test.htm

195/45/16 can be found a bit cheaper.  Camskill are always a good barometer of tyre price and availability - they have Hankook (OE on Mercedes Benz) VPrime 4 for 76 each, or if you drive mostly in the wet and don't mind soft sidewalls, Uniroyal Rainsport 5 for 66 each.  Obviously you have to find and factor-in the cost of a local tyre-fitter if you buy just the tyres.  Some of them won't do it.

If you don't know a pet tyre-fitter, then RAC-tyres or ASDA-tyres are a safe bet - basically these organisations use local-to-you tyre companies to do the supply and fitting.  Both the above are essentially the same company (websites are identical other than colour and font) but ASDA are doing a promo at the moment.

https://www.asdatyres.co.uk/195-45-16?brand=goodyear&brand=hankook&brand=uniroyal&brand=vredestein

Good luck.

 

[DaveT70]

Heavily worn and warped front discs

[jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci]

Thanks Jon, that's grate.

The garage said the brakes were fine but I think it is worth replacing them and the discs. I will get Brembo coated ones.

What do you think of downgradeing to steel 14" or 15" rims for better luck if (when) I hit a pothole? What I spend on the new steel wheels I'll save on the tyres. but it might decrease performance though?

[orangecurry]

Thanks Jon - that's funny 😊

Did this garage say anything useful?  If the brakes really are locking up then you have a problem somewhere.  I could imagine, from the safety of my armchair, that your pistons are sticking in the calipers, which is also causing your brakes to overheat and cook the pads onto the discs - the swishing is due to the pistons not disengaging properly.... how low have you let the pads go?

The wheels and tyres are not likely to be your main problem.  But if you really want to focus on that - downgrading from 16s to something else on a Titanium is going to devalue the car.  Or are you going to keep it long-term.

Your damaged wheel - was it just bent, or cracked?  If cracked, find a replacement matching wheel on a popular auction site.  And wheels (modern ones) don't leak, unless they are cracked.  Or corroded on the rim/tyre sealing point. Or the tyres are fubared.

Too many unknowns.  Armchair is comfy however.

[jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci]

Well it's a 15 year old car pushing 90k miles so im not too worried about resale. And I can always keep the original wheels.

But I've had two incidents with a pothole the last year, the roads round here are bad, and it's only a matter of time before i hit another.

The first one dented the inner edge of the rim. Tyre went flat and I didn't have a spare wheel so I bought an identicle replacement at a breakers yard, then I had the dented wheel fixed for 50 quid.

The other one I think is a minor dent. Reason being, it has a slow leak that takes the pressure down from 33 PSI to about 22 PSI, but then it stops and hovers around 22. Of course I try pump it up well before it gets that low! So I think what's happening is that its leaking out until it gets soft enough thtat the tyre plugs the dent. Just a guess.

But yeah it's deff going to happen again that I hit a bump and these stupid low profiles while looking smart and the soft alloys while probably good for performance are not very practical for the roads up norf.  So some deeper tyres on a steel wheel seems like a better alternative. I'm just worried that the downgrade of the wheels is going to increase fuel consumtion or make performance worse.

[orangecurry]

Try having the 17" Ford wheel as standard!  But yes the 195/45/16 does not have a great depth of sidewall.

As you need 4 new tyres, why not change to the facelift size, which is I believe 195/50/16. This increases the sidewall depth from 88mm to 98mm, and on quality tyres with a decent constructed sidewall that may be enough to protect you from most potholes.

But if you really want to go steel, I doubt that modern entry-level alloy wheels are much lighter than steel, so it is unlikely that performance/fuel will be affected much.  It will probably feel noticeably mushier on the corners, but decent quality and matching new 15" tyres will counter that effect.

Here is, as far as I know, a list that includes the OE wheel/tyre sizes available on mk7 and mk7.5, plus some others that are close enough.

I always buy the higher Load Index when I choose, but that's some extra research for you.

Tyre size	Wheel size	Diam	Circ	Sidewall
175/65R14 82/86	5.5Jx14 ET37.5	583	1832	114
195/50R15 82/86	6Jx15 ET47.5	576	1810	98
195/45R16 80/84	6.5Jx16 ET41.5	582	1828	88
205/45R16 83/87	6.5Jx16 ET41.5	591	1856	92
205/40R17 80/84	7Jx17 ET47.5	596	1872	82
195/50R16 84/88	6.5Jx16 ET41.5	601	1889	98
215/40R17 83/87	7Jx17 ET47.5	604	1897	86
195/60R15 88	6Jx15 ET47.5	615	1932	117
205/45R17 84/88	7Jx17 ET47.5	616	1936	92
195/55R16 87/91	6.5Jx16 ET41.5	621	1951	107

[orangecurry]

...I should have added...

when we bought the car, on cheap mismatched 205/40/17 (pre-facelift size), I immediately fitted 215/40/17 to replace the two worst tyres.  With new tyres, I always get wheels refurbed if they need it, and these were in a state and one already had a slight bend.  I expected this as I'd read-up about the poor size Ford chose for the Zetec S.  But my son managed to bend the other two rims, which were on the front, one so bad the tyre deflated after a mile or so.  Cue another two refurbed wheels, but I chose 205/45/17 for this pair.

So on cheap 82mm sidewall tyres, we had problems - on quality 92mm sidewalls, we have not.  But maybe we've been lucky....

[orangecurry]

....oh and if you do change from alloy to steel, make sure you have the correct 'seat' of wheel nut - Ford did something stupid here as well 😅 with radius and taper????

[jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci]

The low profiles look nice, but that's about it!!

I hadn't considered larger tyres on the same rims, is that possible? Won't this throw out my speedo and odometer?

If I could get another 10mm of sidewall without having to downgrade the rims, id be happy with that I think. It would mean I have to get 5 tyres then so that my spare is the right size. if I dent another rim before my next tyre change then I guess it's time to change the rims too.

Just checking, is this the spec you recommend?

195/50R16 84/88

6.5Jx16 ET41.5

601

1889

98

Asda have Dunlop tyres with an "B" fuel and "A" wet rating for 109 each, that seems pretty good to me

https://www.asdatyres.co.uk/dunlop/sp-sport-bluresponse/195-50-16-88-v-xl-sp-sport-bluresponse?id=3188649818655

 

 

Oh and you mentions the brake pistons needing cleaning maybe, do you think it could be worth replacing them while im at it?

[mickywrx]

11 minutes ago, jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci said:

Oh and you mentions the brake pistons needing cleaning maybe, do you think it could be worth replacing them while im at it?

Get a rebuild kit, something like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234181159980  Includes everything needed to rebuild them.

[orangecurry]

Rebuild kit is a good option, but sometimes the actual problem is corrosion on the pistons, which causes the jamming.

But we are guessing - the calipers could be fine.  If the discs are knackered and/or the pads are very low, these need replacing first.  As you push the pistons back into the calipers, you will see if the boots are damaged and if the pistons move freely.

[jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci]

Tomorrow ill have the wheels off again and take a look. at least i know a bit what im looking for now. and maybe i can post some photos and you can tell me what you think

[orangecurry]

34 minutes ago, jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci said:

I hadn't considered larger tyres on the same rims, is that possible? Won't this throw out my speedo and odometer?

If I could get another 10mm of sidewall without having to downgrade the rims, id be happy with that I think. It would mean I have to get 5 tyres then so that my spare is the right size. if I dent another rim before my next tyre change then I guess it's time to change the rims too.

AFAIK, the facelift Fiesta, or 7.5, all models had slightly 'bigger' tyres over the pre-facelift, almost certainly because even Ford realised the cause of all the damage being transmitted to the OE alloys, of 16 or 17 inch.

DYOR but using a tyre-size calculator is useful to answer questions on 'will a tyre fit', or 'what does a change do to the speedo'.

https://www.wheel-size.com/calc/

This is one I used to produce the table of data above.

Another way to check if it's ok - find a later Fiesta with 16s parked on the street - check what size tyres it has.

ETA though of course the cars are all old, and owners will have fitted replacement tyres that garages or the internet tells them are correct.

[orangecurry]

52 minutes ago, jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci said:

Just checking, is this the spec you recommend?

195/50R16 84/88

6.5Jx16 ET41.5

601

1889

98

Asda have Dunlop tyres with an "B" fuel and "A" wet rating for 109 each, that seems pretty good to me

https://www.asdatyres.co.uk/dunlop/sp-sport-bluresponse/195-50-16-88-v-xl-sp-sport-bluresponse?id=3188649818655

As I said, you need to check that 195/50/16 were a Ford fitment on the later Fiesta, but for the avoidance of doubt - I have fitted on my Fiesta 2009 mk7, 205/45/17 tyres, which have a total diameter (when new) of 616mm - there is no rubbing. And I've just driven 2700 miles to Spain and back.  I believe the Zetec S is slightly lower than your Titanium?

195/50/16 would give you 601mm total diameter, which is significantly less than 616mm, therefore there should be no issues on your car.

Remember that ALL the different wheel size and tyre combos available for the Fiesta for mk7-mk8 will result in the range of different diameters I listed above.  Yet Ford supplied them all from the factory.  Slight speedo variation is a result.

Calculation app I linked suggests this is a 3% total increase - speedo will change by 2 or 3 mph.  It will already be under-reading, as that is how they are designed.

[jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci]

Thanks for the help with this. The 195/50/16s are working a treat.  much quieter than the previous tyres and the handling seems better to.

I replaced the breaks and disks to because they were bit discoloured from heating. The sound seems to be gone!! Unforutantely though i tested the abs and it locked up again. So there must be a second issue.

It might be an electrical issue with the ABS module itself. Which I hear is an expensive bit of kit. Reckon it might be worth seeing if I can buy one at a breakers yard and swapping it out, retesting the breaks and seeing what happens. Not even sure where the ABS module is though. There aren't any errror codes showing on the ABS though. If anyone has any ideas for what else i can try im all ears.

I am getting an orange engine light on the dash, and a new error now. The code suggests its and intermittent fault with the exhaust recirculation valve (ERV / EGR valve). I dout that has anything to do with the price of cheese though. I tried resetting it but it came back pretty quickly. A mate told me a tank of premium diesel, a bottle of redex and a drive on the motorway might just clean it out enough to clear that error so im going to try that before i worry about it.

[orangecurry]

2 hours ago, jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci said:

Thanks for the help with this. The 195/50/16s are working a treat.  much quieter than the previous tyres and the handling seems better to.

I replaced the breaks and disks to because they were bit discoloured from heating. The sound seems to be gone!!

Don't forget that in any case, new tyres will improve handling etc, if you bought decent ones 🙂 

I hope you've bedded-in your new discs and pads properly - (and never sit with your foot on the brake pedal when sat at traffic lights with hot discs).  Many people argue about the details, but here's one bedding-in procedure that seems to be a standard response:

the vehicle should be driven at a moderate speed (30-35mph) and brakes should be applied gradually (normally) without coming to a complete stop, to initiate the material transfer process. This process should be repeated for 8-10 times. Avoid more than a minute between each brake application to maintain the temperatures needed for the bed in process. When handing the vehicle back to the customer, it is essential to advise them to brake gradually (normally) and to avoid feathering their brakes or heavy braking for about 200 miles to continue the bedding in process correctly.

https://apecautomotive.co.uk/techmate-guides/bedding-in-and-material-transfer-process/

 

Slightly different procedure, but essentially the same.

https://www.autozone.com/diy/brakes/bedding-brakes

[jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci]

Yes i bedded them in and im just trying to drive carefully at the moment but i did test the locking by braking hard once because i was curious to see if the problem was solved, and the abs caused the wheels to lock completely and bring the car to a stop again. Maby not the smartest idea while the breaks are so new but curiosity got the better of me. Perhaps i just live with it for a a couple of hundred miles and then test again.

Any ideas on the engine recirculation valve warning light? Worth putting a tank ofpremium diesel in and trying to clean it that way?

[orangecurry]

I know nothing about diesels - but 87% of random electrical faults/error messages are caused by a bad earth.

I would suggest replacing the earth-strap as first step on a fifteen year old car with any electrical issues, but Ford in their wisdom chose some stupidly overcomplicated earth strap on the battery, and they want ludicrous amounts for a new one on my car.  So I took mine off and made sure the contact surfaces are all bare/clean and covered with copaslip - other anticorrosives are available.

Where is the ABS control module on your car?  Is it sitting in water?  Any water ingress under the seats etc etc?

[jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci]

I think its more than just an electrical issue and is indicating that there is something actually wrong, but I am totaly out of my depth with this. I dont know where the abs module even is, i will have to look int up. But it's a good idea to maybe clean my earth strap anyway just in case.

I have never heard of an issue where the ABS causes the car to come to a complete stop, I was hoping that it was a known issue with these cars and someone could say what they did to fix it. But at this point im at a bit of a loss.

[rd457]

On 2/11/2024 at 11:23 AM, jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci said:

5. So I started ignoring it but now the big issue that has made me worried to keep ignoring it. I was doing 70 on the M1 in the wet and a carrier bag blew in front of me. On a reflex I hit the brake pedal sure a bit too hard, and my ABS kicked in (I got the drdrdrdrdr sound of the ABS). I released the pedal immediately cos I realised it was just a bag but ... the ABS continued to engage, and brought the car to A COMPLETE FLAMING STOP on the motorway. Luckily i didnt get rear ended. Once the car was totally stopped, I was able to accellerate away again.

6. I'm pretty sure this didn't used to happen, I have breaked hard enough to engage ABS before and the car would Go again as soon as I release the pedal.

7. I have tested the ABS a few more times and it does this every time now, the car will come to a total stop before I'm able to go again.

ABS monitors the speed of wheels using sensors located at the wheel hubs. If it detects locked up wheels during braking then it engages its pumping mechanism to temporarily relieve brake pressure thus helping you to steering out of danger.

The fault of ABS continuing to activate after applying brakes must be because either one or more wheels are getting locked up somehow, or it's getting bad data from the sensors leading it to falsely believe this is so, or the ABS unit itself is faulty and misbehaving.

There'll also be one or two brake pedal position switches that detect the fact that the brake pedal is pressed and cause the brake lights to be activated, but I fail to see how a fault with these could have anything to do with it.

Wheels could get locked up because the brake pads are not getting moved away from the discs upon taking your foot off of the pedal. One way this could happen has already been discussed - the possibility of the pistons getting stuck in the calipers. Another is the slide pins jamming or the bracket shims the pads ride on being in poor condition, preventing the pads from sliding away from the discs. Of course that applies to disc brakes, we don't know what wheel(s) may be locking up and you may have drum brakes on the back which could be locking up in some way.

Furthermore the pads moving away from the discs upon taking your foot off of the pedal involves the brake hydraulic fluid moving back up the pipes, through the ABS unit, and into the master cylinder. The master cylinder includes a spring that pushes the pedal back up and helps draw the fluid back up. Hypothetically could the ABS unit or master cylinder be faulty in a way that is preventing the fluid from flowing back up?

Alternatively, perhaps a wheel lock up could be due to something other than brake components, maybe a bad wheel bearing or CV joint.

It's perhaps very significant that the unwanted braking condition disappears after the vehicle has come to a complete stop.

On 3/16/2024 at 5:29 PM, jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci said:

Reckon it might be worth seeing if I can buy one at a breakers yard and swapping it out, retesting the breaks and seeing what happens. Not even sure where the ABS module is though.

You can't just swap out an ABS unit like you might a brake pad. An ABS unit will need to be properly bled which can involve a maintenance routine triggered by a suitable scantool. Additionally it may need to be reprogrammed specifically for your vehicle.

It'll be located in the engine bay. On the Mk2.5 Focus it's located behind the battery, maybe you'll find it in the same place. It'll look somewhat like this (just a generic picture taken from a google search), all the thin metal pipes are a dead giveaway:

[jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci]

This is some great insight, thanks!

I think the best thing to do then is to go somewhere safe (deserted parking lot?), get the mrs to stick her head out the passenger window, get up to 30 mph and hit the breaks as hard as, and she can tell me which if any of the whieels are locking up?

Then I'll know if it's an electrical (sensor) fault, or if it's a mechanical (wheels are actually locking) fault.

[jon-2009fiesta1.6tdci]

ALRIGHT

On 3/25/2024 at 12:35 AM, rd457 said:

t's perhaps very significant that the unwanted braking condition disappears after the vehicle has come to a complete stop.

Yes so you are right.

the old lady didnt trust me to stick her neck out quite literally so she stood behind a brick wall while i did the break test. The left hand passenger FRONT wheel with disc breaks IS locking up and skidding when the ABS engages and stays locked up until the car comes to a compleat stop. So that is obviously why.

So i guess we can rule out an electrical fault. the sensor is correctly telling the abs that it must continue to break. But the ABS should be fluttering the breaks and releasing when the wheel locks up?

The breaks dont stick under normal ocnditions so this must mean that the abs is not releasing the breaks.

So now i need to figure wich of these is the problem:

 

On 3/25/2024 at 12:35 AM, rd457 said:

the pistons getting stuck in the calipers

 

On 3/25/2024 at 12:35 AM, rd457 said:

the slide pins jamming

 

On 3/25/2024 at 12:35 AM, rd457 said:

the bracket shims the pads ride on being in poor condition

 

On 3/25/2024 at 12:35 AM, rd457 said:

the ABS unit or master cylinder be faulty in a way that is preventing the fluid from flowing back up

 

On 3/25/2024 at 12:35 AM, rd457 said:

a bad wheel bearing or CV joint

 

I suppose the way to do this is to look up what each of these things are, find where they are on my car and see if it looks wrong?