Petition to ban Smart Motorways

[eddie eastwood]

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/police-chief-admits-hed-rather-his-family-didnt-use-smart-motorways/?cid=eml-AC058_CHUB_CARSINS-CHUB_INSUR_A_W1_20210607_105054&utm_medium=email&utm_source=AC058_CHUB_CARSINS&utm_campaign=CHUB_INSUR_A_W1_20210607_105054&omhide=true&contactURN=47577025&hasBreakdown=None

[Eric Bloodaxe]

Yes,i've seen a lot of adverse comments from senior police officers on the topic of "smart" motorways. Can't recall one saying anything favourable about them, tbh.

NB the petition is still about 1500 short of the target for a Government response if you know anyone who might be inclined to sign it.

 

[Daniel Elliott]

Just seen this. It seems like life is changing before our eyes and we need to take control. I dare say our fathers and grandfathers may have made the same statement at various points in their existence. . 

Thanks for posting. 

[Justin Smith]

On 2/17/2021 at 12:13 PM, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Reports of further deaths in the media today and I found a petition which some of you may wish to support:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/570967

We have a problem because congestion is getting worse, and will do so even more as public transport might take years tor recover from the pandemic. Many people will not use public transport if masks are mandated, but many might only use it if they are enforced (because the government have put so much effort into scaring everyone), so it's a lose lose.

But they will not build much more in the way of motorways, they're too expensive, they take up loads of land and people do not want motorways near them (I certainly wouldn't). So on balance, apart from certain exceptions, I agree with no more motorways, thus "Smart motorways" are the only way to get more capacity.

However, I do not agree with permanent all lane running, I think instead they should all be like the original M42 "Smart motorway" where the hard shoulder was by default a non running lane and only became a running lane at busy times and with a strictly enforced 50mph speed limit. After all, how is that any different to the situation when lanes are closed for road works ?
Yes 50mph is significantly slower then 70mph, but it's a hell of a lot faster than being stood still......

[Eric Bloodaxe]

18 hours ago, Justin Smith said:

Many people will not use public transport if masks are mandated, but many might only use it if they are enforced (because the government have put so much effort into scaring everyone), so it's a lose lose.

I've made this point to my MP several times. We were quite frequent long distance train travellers for leisure purposes, but there's no way we're paying rail fares to sit wearing a mask all the way up to Inverness or down to Penzance just to mention two of our favourite journeys.

 

[Justin Smith]

1 hour ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

I've made this point to my MP several times. We were quite frequent long distance train travellers for leisure purposes, but there's no way we're paying rail fares to sit wearing a mask all the way up to Inverness or down to Penzance just to mention two of our favourite journeys

I'm really worried about public transport, it may literally take years to recover its numbers, and fewer passengers, means fewer services which then means fewer passengers, it's a vicious circle.
Even people who do not use public transport should be worried about that because it means more cars on the roads.....

[Eric Bloodaxe]

4 minutes ago, Justin Smith said:

I'm really worried about public transport, it may literally take years to recover its numbers, and fewer passengers, means fewer services which then means fewer passengers, it's a vicious circle.
Even people who do not use public transport should be worried about that because it means more cars on the roads.....

Couldn't agree more. We make extensive use of our local buses under normal circumstances (we have the senior pass, so why not?) but have only been on a couple of times while the mask rule is in force, 10 minutes is about my limit, so more car use by us, I'm afraid.

[unofix]

4 minutes ago, Justin Smith said:

it means more cars on the roads.....

Ah! but does it ? Since a massive number of people now work from home and will probably never go back to an office again then the number of households with 2 or more cars could well reduce. One thing for sure a reduction in buses will be a big plus, less need to waste road space for bus lanes, less dirty smelly thick black smoke, less damage to the road and kerbs near bus stops, (I could go on but you would think I was anti-bus).

I think in general we see a reduction in lots of transport for many years to come, less commuting will have a big impact

[Eric Bloodaxe]

41 minutes ago, unofix said:

 less dirty smelly thick black smoke, less damage to the road and kerbs near bus stops, (I could go on but you would think I was anti-bus).

Lol, we're getting way off topic again! Actually we have a lot of electric buses round my way already and the rest will have to go electric or hydrogen in the next few years anyway, if the politicians have their way.

41 minutes ago, unofix said:

I think in general we see a reduction in lots of transport for many years to come, less commuting will have a big impact

It will certainly be interesting to see what happens, that's for sure! At the moment in my area at least, traffic seems to be at, or above, pre-Covid levels already. 

[Justin Smith]

17 hours ago, unofix said:

Ah! but does it ? Since a massive number of people now work from home and will probably never go back to an office again then the number of households with 2 or more cars could well reduce. One thing for sure a reduction in buses will be a big plus, less need to waste road space for bus lanes, less dirty smelly thick black smoke, less damage to the road and kerbs near bus stops, (I could go on but you would think I was anti-bus).

I think in general we see a reduction in lots of transport for many years to come, less commuting will have a big impact

There is already more traffic on the road than pre pandemic, that's a fact. It may or may not be as bad in the morning peak but that is just matter of time.

Coming back from Reading to Sheff a few weeks ago was the worst traffic I have ever known because it was bad everywhere, the A34, the M40. the M42 and the M1 were all frequently down to stationary or low speed. It took us over 5 hours (nett) to get home, if I'd have been able to do 50mph all the way I'd have been more than happy..... So, if a 50 limit is imposed when all lane running is being used on a "Smart" motorway I'd be happy with that.

[MarksST]

44 minutes ago, Justin Smith said:

There is already more traffic on the road than pre pandemic, that's a fact. It may or may not be as bad in the morning peak but that is just matter of time.

Coming back from Reading to Sheff a few weeks ago was the worst traffic I have ever known because it was bad everywhere, the A34, the M40. the M42 and the M1 were all frequently down to stationary or low speed. It took us over 5 hours (nett) to get home, if I'd have been able to do 50mph all the way I'd have been more than happy..... So, if a 50 limit is imposed when all lane running is being used on a "Smart" motorway I'd be happy with that.

Smart motorways or a 50 limit won’t stop holdups, they don’t stop accidents or breakdowns. Your journey home wasn’t delayed just by the amount of vehicles on the road either, 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

A report today is predicting a 25% increase in the number of cars on the road by 2050 unless action is taken and calls for improved public transport availability (particularly in rural areas) 7 days a week. 

Fortunately it is looking increasingly hopeful that the mask/distancing rules may be dropped on July 19 so we can at least start to use the available buses/trains more fully again.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

1 hour ago, MarksST said:

Smart motorways or a 50 limit won’t stop holdups, they don’t stop accidents or breakdowns.

I'm not sure about the 50 limit either. They can be imposed on any motorway anyway, all lane running or not. I avoid motorways whenever possible nowadays, I spent enough time on them driving for business. Even years ago though, they often imposed a temporary 50 limit and you found yourself thinking "I wish" as you crawled along at snails pace.

I often found massive delays were caused by something as simple as two artics driving side by side at the same speed as one had pulled out of the slipstream to overtake then been unable to do so, effectively leaving only one lane available for other traffic.

[Justin Smith]

27 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

I'm not sure about the 50 limit either. They can be imposed on any motorway anyway, all lane running or not. I avoid motorways whenever possible nowadays, I spent enough time on them driving for business. Even years ago though, they often imposed a temporary 50 limit and you found yourself thinking "I wish" as you crawled along at snails pace.

I often found massive delays were caused by something as simple as two artics driving side by side at the same speed as one had pulled out of the slipstream to overtake then been unable to do so, effectively leaving only one lane available for other traffic.

It isn't down to one lane though is it ? It's down to one lane at 50mph, one more at 53mph and one at 70mph Though I agree that on a really busy road just that can have a knock on effect, particularly as people braking seems to have a disproportionate effect on the build up of traffic behind. Didn't I read somewhere that is why a motorway with a 50mph limit (and everyone doing 50) can actually carry more traffic ?

[Justin Smith]

1 hour ago, MarksST said:

Smart motorways or a 50 limit won’t stop holdups, they don’t stop accidents or breakdowns. Your journey home wasn’t delayed just by the amount of vehicles on the road either, 

Ignoring safety concerns for a minute, a "Smart" motorway has 4 lanes, one more than a standard motorway. That must mean it can carry significantly more traffic.

A 50mph limit on and "All Lane Running" motorway must reduce the chances of an accident and even more so the chances of a fatal accident.

Our journey home taking about twice as long as usual was caused by the massive amount of traffic, I cannot actually remember driving past an accident that day.

[Justin Smith]

1 hour ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

A report today is predicting a 25% increase in the number of cars on the road by 2050 unless action is taken and calls for improved public transport availability (particularly in rural areas) 7 days a week. 

Fortunately it is looking increasingly hopeful that the mask/distancing rules may be dropped on July 19 so we can at least start to use the available buses/trains more fully again.

Aren't they talking about possibly continuing to mandate masks on public transport ? And even if they relax it to "advisory" I am not at all confident they won't reintroduce the rule when flu or Covid deaths (or even just infections) start rising in the winter. They (the government) have crossed the line, even they have been surprised at what they can get away with.....

[MarksST]

44 minutes ago, Justin Smith said:

Ignoring safety concerns for a minute, a "Smart" motorway has 4 lanes, one more than a standard motorway. That must mean it can carry significantly more traffic.

A 50mph limit on and "All Lane Running" motorway must reduce the chances of an accident and even more so the chances of a fatal accident.

Our journey home taking about twice as long as usual was caused by the massive amount of traffic, I cannot actually remember driving past an accident that day.

They’ll carry the same amount of vehicles, the flow will be different.

Driving at 50 won’t stop accidents, many things can cause an accident.

Usually by the time you’ve got to the cause of the holdup it will have been cleared away, 

[Justin Smith]

9 minutes ago, MarksST said:

They’ll carry the same amount of vehicles, the flow will be different.

Driving at 50 won’t stop accidents, many things can cause an accident.

Usually by the time you’ve got to the cause of the holdup it will have been cleared away, 

Are you implying that ALR (the subject of this thread) would be no safer with an enforced 50mph limit than a 70mph limit ?
That goes against all reason. If we exaggerate, purely to clarify the point, if the limit was 30mph would the accident rate and death rate still be the same ? And if not at what speed would the limit affect the accident and death rate ?

[Eric Bloodaxe]

1 hour ago, Justin Smith said:

I am not at all confident they won't reintroduce the rule

It's a topic for one of the Covid threads on here really, but I share your scepticism though living in hope. My MP will have to brace himself for further correspondence on the matter if they do!😀

[MarksST]

3 hours ago, Justin Smith said:

Are you implying that ALR (the subject of this thread) would be no safer with an enforced 50mph limit than a 70mph limit ?
That goes against all reason. If we exaggerate, purely to clarify the point, if the limit was 30mph would the accident rate and death rate still be the same ? And if not at what speed would the limit affect the accident and death rate ?

Do you think no accidents happen in reduced limits for roadworks, or in variable limits sections of motorways?

Accidents will still happen if it was reduced to 30, the outcome of the accident would be different. If we could all drive accident free on motorways at 50, then 70 or even 100 wouldn’t be an issue.

[unofix]

Bring back the man with the Red Flag, its the only sensible way forward.

[Justin Smith]

1 hour ago, unofix said:

Bring back the man with the Red Flag, its the only sensible way forward.

Well if one wants to use the same risk aversion level that the government are using for Covid that is entirely possible, and I really am only half joking. Bear in mind that, apparently, so the polls tell us, more than half the population actually support that extreme level of Covid risk aversion.... There is a trend over history, certainly over the last 200 odd years, for the level of risk aversion the public are prepared to tolerate goes down and down and the number of regulations and restrictions on their lives they are prepared to tolerate "to keep us safe" goes up and up.

But it's all about proportionality, risk to benefit, isn't it?
A 30mph limit on an ALR motorway would almost certainly result in no fatalities, but almost everyone would consider that too slow, so it's how many potential deaths should we be prepared to put up with in order to have a speed limit of X on an ALR "Smart" motorway ? As the speed limit rises the benefit lessens, the question is, is there a point at which deaths rise faster then the benefit of being able to travel more quickly ? And where is the balance between people wanting to save time (or just because they like driving fast for itself) and the increased number of deaths that will result in ?
Bear in mind that it isn't just deaths, every year tens of thousands of people suffer RTA injuries so severe that they make "Long Covid" look like an absolute walk in the park.

Personally I think a 50mph limit on an ALR "Smart" motorway is the best compromise (like on the original M42), others may have a different view, but it is possible that if they try to argue for a 70mph limit on an ALR motorway the public may well not accept that and there may be no "Smart" motorways at all. 50mph is a lot faster than being stood in a traffic jam.

[unofix]

Cars can kill people, always remember that when you`re driving........

is that a bit like saying: Guns can kill people, always remember that when you`re shooting.......

but then it has been argued that actually its not guns that kill people, its that people kill people and that its sometimes done using a gun.

I'm now withdrawing from this thread for the sake of my mental health.