Energy chat, the future of car propulsion

[TrevorB]

I can't see what the problem is. I think it is good, we must move on, electric and/or Hydrogen.

If you want a new petrol or diesel buy one late 2029. There will be thousands of pre reg as well I reckon, I never buy brand new, always pre reg with say 20 miles on the clock, save thousands.

Some of the stupid info is just scaremongering. Jeremy Vine suggesting/asking yesterday if all petrol/diesel stations would close down 1st Jan 2030, idiot

There will be millions of used petrol/diesel etc on the roads for many years after 2030 - just manufacturers wont be making new petrol/diesel

[Guy Heaton]

I remember working in London in the late 90s/early 00s.  I would spend a week there, going back North at the weekend.  The pollution was foul, I'd spend the weekend cleaning black gunk out of my nose.

I would happily see a future where that's gone.  Electric does mean that the pollution production happens at the power stations, which even if they are fossil based, are far more efficient ad cleaner than an ICE, and are localised to one area.

Hydrogen would be the ideal, but we need to make the hydrogen production process as clean and efficient as possible.

[StephenFord]

16 minutes ago, TrevorB said:

I can't see what the problem is.

The problem is cost. For those that can afford new/nearly new, getting a company to buy, or a personal lease, that's fine. There are millions of car owners now who are right at the bottom of the economy scale, there is a huge market for sub £3000 cars. Interesting that someone mentioned the analogy of betamax/VHS. When VHS 1st came out, you could pay up to £1000 for a new one, by the time of being phased out, £50 would secure a brand new unit.

battery cars will be expensive for decades to come as manufacturers seek to get a return on their forced investment on R&D of them.

In addition, now the demise has been announced on petrol/diesel, all investment on developing even further cleaner burn units will now cease for the next 10 years! That can't be good for the 'green' agenda.

If I was rich with a decent disposable income, the changeover wouldn't worry me at all, but I'm not, and it does. (oh, agree with you on Vine, bit of a plonker!)

[Eric Bloodaxe]

38 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

 Interesting that someone mentioned the analogy of betamax/VHS. When VHS 1st came out, you could pay up to £1000 for a new one, by the time of being phased out, £50 would secure a brand new unit.

Might have been me on another thread😀

I had similar thoughts on engine development - can't see much spending being done now, which as you say will mean some improvements will never happen.

Another thing that occurred to me is the hybrid thing. I keep seeing media reports that sales of "electrified" vehicles have increased substantially lately. I wonder if that's because a lot of best sellers (such as Fiesta, Focus, Golf (and clones) etc have recently gone "mild hybrid" and pushed the numbers up?

These cars certainly won't qualify for the hybrid extension up to 2035 as they are incapable of running in electric only mode. It would be better if they were reclassified as "battery assisted" or just lumped in with petrol/diesel. To call them hybrids is confusing to non-technically minded buyers who think they are doing the right thing, and also skews the statistics.

 

 

 

 

[Mark-UK]

58 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

The problem is cost. For those that can afford new/nearly new, getting a company to buy, or a personal lease, that's fine. There are millions of car owners now who are right at the bottom of the economy scale, there is a huge market for sub £3000 cars.

There are  second-hand Toyota Prius on the market at under £2k now today, and as the number of EV cars bought over the next 10 years increases, there'll be loads of second-hand ones available in 2030, supply will increase and prices will drop, it's such a non issue.

As for new Electric cars being too expensive, cheapest VW ID.3 (all electric golf)  is £22000, the cheapest petrol Focus £22100

[JW1982]

If the Euro 7 emission standard becomes mandatory in 2025 it will be virtually impossible for any car manufacturer to meet this emission standard when using ICE or Hybrid technology.

There is a huge chance that the introduction of the Euro 7 emission standard will be the end of ICE or hybrid technology as we know it.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

16 minutes ago, Mark-UK said:

As for new Electric cars being too expensive, cheapest VW ID.3 (all electric golf)  is £22000, the cheapest petrol Focus £22100

Where did you see that deal, Mark? I was pricing up various electrics last night out of curiosity and the cheapest ID3 was £29k or so (after deducting government grant).

[StephenFord]

28 minutes ago, Mark-UK said:

There are  second-hand Toyota Prius on the market at under £2k now today, and as the number of EV cars bought over the next 10 years increases, there'll be loads of second-hand ones available in 2030, supply will increase and prices will drop, it's such a non issue.

As for new Electric cars being too expensive, cheapest VW ID.3 (all electric golf)  is £22000, the cheapest petrol Focus £22100

A replacement battery for the average Prius in £3500, likely needed for an end of life £2k Prius.

The cost of NEW cars is not the issue, the banning of traditional cars will distort the second hand market, especially the bottom, where I get my cars from...

(In 2019, 2 Million new cars were sold, and 8 million used)

[st line x 140 driver]

Fastest depreciating cars are electric. You only get 100% battery life new. The more you use them the less mileage they do. Tesla is the 3rd most unreliable car only beating renault and Range rover. Batteries are so expensive that you buy the car and have the option of  renting the batteries from the manufacturer for piece of mind.Replacing batteries is a major strip down in some cases cutting car in two. Most charging stations give you the first hour free then charge extortionate rates for over stay. Beware if you stay in a hotel and leave it plugged in overnight. Bill will be three times the cost of staying there for a week.

[mrmetallica]

it makes me laugh as the goverment allowed people to have over 25 year old cars and not pay road tax when they are the worst polluters

[StephenFord]

4 minutes ago, mrmetallica said:

it makes me laugh as the goverment allowed people to have over 25 year old cars and not pay road tax when they are the worst polluters

Indeed, just as funny as the BBC giving out a free TV licenses to the over 75s, as they were the age group that watched most TV LOL

[Mark-UK]

59 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Where did you see that deal, Mark? I was pricing up various electrics last night out of curiosity and the cheapest ID3 was £29k or so (after deducting government grant).

I just did a quick search and the first page that came up was https://www.edfenergy.com/for-home/energywise/cheapest-electric-cars-to-buy   , but having a better look your right, that price is way to low.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

4 minutes ago, Mark-UK said:

I just did a quick search and the first page that came up was https://www.edfenergy.com/for-home/energywise/cheapest-electric-cars-to-buy , but having a better look your right, that price is way to low.

Looks like someone at EDF  misread £32k (cheapest price before the grant) as £22k, perhaps.

[Guy Heaton]

I'm pleased to see though that electric cars are starting just to be e-versions of their normal ICE.  I don't want a tesla where I have to go down 15 submenus to open the chuffing glovebox, I just want an electric Focus.

I do appreciate though that electric is far easier when you're middle-class and have a drive.  I don't know how it will work in the type of estates I grew up in.

[Mark-UK]

I totally agree with the Tesla menu comment, what a dumb idea.  I'm still think that as the technology moves on, in 10 years charging will be so fast, you won't need to do it at home. Probably a poor comparison, but a 2010 cell phone took an age to charge, now we have phones that go zero to 100% in less than 30 minutes , and others you don't even need to plug in to charge.

What I think lots of people will find hard to get their heads round, is that electric cars have more range driving in town than on the long motorway trip

[StephenFord]

8 minutes ago, Mark-UK said:

I'm still think that as the technology moves on, in 10 years charging will be so fast, you won't need to do it at home. Probably a poor comparison, but a 2010 cell phone took an age to charge, now we have phones that go zero to 100% in less than 30 minutes , and others you don't even need to plug in to charge.
 

mmm... my Nokia 6700 which I only stopped using a few months back, took an hour to charge, and it would last for 10 whole days LOL

[Mark-UK]

17 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

mmm... my Nokia 6700 which I only stopped using a few months back, took an hour to charge, and it would last for 10 whole days LOL

Just to give you a heads up, they make colour TV's now 😂😂

[StephenFord]

7 minutes ago, Mark-UK said:

Just to give you a heads up, they make colour TV's now 😂😂

I love the way you specify, 'colour' TVs, as if they may have just made B&W ones LOL

[Mark-UK]

I can't really say much as I still have a 6700 somewhere , along with this beauty. Keep thinking I should get a PAYG sim and leave one in the glovebox just in case.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

13 minutes ago, Mark-UK said:

I can't really say much as I still have a 6700 somewhere , along with this beauty. Keep thinking I should get a PAYG sim and leave one in the glovebox just in case.

Lol I do exactly that with an old 1600, just have to remember to send the odd text from it now and then to keep the number "alive".

[n_hudson]

The only issue I see... probably already covered... but...

The Electricity grid... This will need some serious upgrading to cope with the new demand from electric cars.

I also question the ability and space to actually charge the vehicle, people living in the new trendy ECO estates, Terraced Houses, FLATs etc... 

THEN... the costs of the vehicles themselves compared to combustion engined and replacement and mining of the HIGHLY toxic battery components... 

I honestly see the 2030 slipping to 2050... we don't even have enough social housing to shelter those that need it, I cant see the government (ANY of them) being ABLE to force he issue forward, needed as it so clearly is, then don't get me started on other countries and their green credentials and targets... 

 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

3 hours ago, Guy Heaton said:

I do appreciate though that electric is far easier when you're middle-class and have a drive.  I don't know how it will work in the type of estates I grew up in.

Lol, when I was a kid a lot of people still had gas lights, including my gran.😀

[StephenFord]

4 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Lol, when I was a kid a lot of people still had gas lights, including my gran.😀

Those mantels were tricky buggers to change, god I'm old...😢

[Stoney871]

Those mantels were tricky buggers to change, god I'm old...[emoji22]

Used to change them on tilly lamps, very fragile and the original ones were asbestos iirc.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[Mark-UK]

Now I know it a Porsche, so way out of 99.9% of our price range but it the bit about charging times. It's all about how many high kw  charging is.

5 mins to get 100 km range is not that bad and will get faster and more range as time goes on (the 100% range is 200-300 miles depending on were and how)