Energy chat, the future of car propulsion

[StephenFord]

The only way I could ever see this working is having induction charging with under tarmac charging plates. The thought of a 500 x car park with 500 x posts would be impractical, people already crash into the 2 or 3 already available, it would be an obstacle course!

[Eric Bloodaxe]

11 hours ago, Mark-UK said:

An on topic piece in our local paper, and something larger companies could do.

 

https://www.chorley-guardian.co.uk/news/environment/should-lancashire-bosses-charge-their-workers-electric-cars-3043164

Sounds a great idea to me, Mark. Given the current miniscule take up of electric cars it'll cost the company very little, but is a good bit of PR for an Electricity Distribution business.

I wonder what the position is on employees BIK taxation though? 

 

[TomsFocus]

They could also add solar panels, either on 'stilts' over a section of the car park, or on the roof of their large building to harness renewable energy...free charging for cars during the working week, then get paid for the energy produced at the weekend or early morning/evening when there are no cars in the car park...  Costs are still huge for an individual householder to install panels but would barely be noticeable for a large business...

[Guy Heaton]

Before lockdown my work had just put in 2 charging points.  But if you wanted to use them it was five quid an hour!

[Mark-UK]

1 hour ago, TomsFocus said:

They could also add solar panels, either on 'stilts' over a section of the car park, or on the roof of their large building to harness renewable energy...free charging for cars during the working week, then get paid for the energy produced at the weekend or early morning/evening when there are no cars in the car park...  Costs are still huge for an individual householder to install panels but would barely be noticeable for a large business...

This is the type of thinking I like,  a solution to a problem,  instead of it won't work at this very instance so I'm dead against it attitude.

It the same with gas central heating, the government had planed to ban it on new build homes by 2023, but have dropped that plan now, not because it's undoable, but because builders don't want to do it.  You tell them they HAVE to do it.  There is a large new housing estate near me where every house has full solar panels inbuilt in the roof,  it can be done if the will is there.

I'm 100% positive there'll be loads of solutions we haven't thought of yet.

[StephenFord]

14 minutes ago, Mark-UK said:

There is a large new housing estate near me where every house has full solar panels inbuilt in the roof,  it can be done if the will is there.

 

Solar powered cars are the way to go - though winter driving here will be a challenge LOL

[Eric Bloodaxe]

57 minutes ago, Mark-UK said:

There is a large new housing estate near me where every house has full solar panels inbuilt in the roof,  it can be done if the will is there.

Yes, I've spotted the odd new build estate where that's happened, and they were very well integrated, look much better than those added afterwards.

57 minutes ago, Mark-UK said:

I'm 100% positive there'll be loads of solutions we haven't thought of yet.

Yes, agree on that one too. Pity governments don't just specify what they want to achieve (e.g. nett zero carbon emissions in this case) and let science/industry come up with solutions, instead of meddling with the how as well (e.g. battery electric cars).

Still baffled why synthetic fuels don't seem to get much attention:

https://www.bosch.com/stories/synthetic-fuels/

[StephenFord]

53 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Yes, agree on that one too. Pity governments don't just specify what they want to achieve (e.g. nett zero carbon emissions in this case) and let science/industry come up with solutions, instead of meddling with the how as well (e.g. battery electric cars).

 

Entirely agree! When JFK announced the goal of landing man on the moon, he wasn't fussed on the detail how it was done, just painted the broad brush stroke of a target...

[Eric Bloodaxe]

On 11/19/2020 at 10:14 AM, DaveT70 said:

BEVs are a passing fad, a stop gap and will be replaced by Hydrogen vehicles. BEVs are effectively betamax. I shan't be buying one, I will wait for Hydrogen

That solves all the infrastructure issues.

Interesting to see that Jim Ratcliffe of Ineos has signed a deal with Hyundai to build a hydrogen version of his 4x4. Ineos are also planning a network of hydrogen filling stations.

With big players like Honda and Toyota also apparently backing hydrogen, it will be fascinating to see how this plays out. 

 

[mjt]

I'm quite keen to move to electric. This is partly because the number of driving years I have left is rapidly reducing so I can't afford to wait to see which way the technology develops and partly because my Mk3 EcoBoost is due for a very expensive wet belt change in two years. It seems to me that the measures being taken to reduce the environmental impact of internal combustion are making it much more expensive to run, much more complex and consequently much less reliable. In the medium term it looks as if battery electrics are going to be the way to go. I happened across this BBC Click item on EVs the other night when I was having trouble sleeping. It's an interesting watch.

For someone in my position, where the car may sit for several weeks without being used and journeys are rarely more than a 60-100-mile round trip an EV would seem to be ideal. I imagine servicing costs will be drastically reduced as no need for oil, filter and air filter changes, just cabin filter occasionally. Also fewer consumables such as exhaust systems. For the type of use it would get overnight charging at home would be sufficient and we would just keep our older Mk2.5 1.8 for longer trips such as holidays. so what's not to like?

I'm also keen to experience the off-the-line torque you can get with an electric

[Guy Heaton]

I agree with both of you on this.  Hydrogen is the ideal as its exhaust is water.  If we can create/extract hydrogen cleanly it's a winner.  But that could be a long way off and in the meantime EV makes a lot of sense.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

31 minutes ago, mjt said:

I'm quite keen to move to electric. This is partly because the number of driving years I have left is rapidly reducing so I can't afford to wait to see which way the technology develops and partly because my Mk3 EcoBoost is due for a very expensive wet belt change in two years. It seems to me that the measures being taken to reduce the environmental impact of internal combustion are making it much more expensive to run, much more complex and consequently much less reliable. In the medium term it looks as if battery electrics are going to be the way to go. I happened across this BBC Click item on EVs the other night when I was having trouble sleeping. It's an interesting watch.

For someone in my position, where the car may sit for several weeks without being used and journeys are rarely more than a 60-100-mile round trip an EV would seem to be ideal. I imagine servicing costs will be drastically reduced as no need for oil, filter and air filter changes, just cabin filter occasionally. Also fewer consumables such as exhaust systems. For the type of use it would get overnight charging at home would be sufficient and we would just keep our older Mk2.5 1.8 for longer trips such as holidays. so what's not to like?

I'm also keen to experience the off-the-line torque you can get with an electric

I think you sum up the dilemma many of us are facing very well there, Mike. Particularly agree on the emissions measures on i/c cars, which, when you read the threads on here, seem to cause more issues than the basic engines themselves.

As mentioned earlier in the thread my thoughts are currently very much with electric for my wife's car when we need to change it. I'm still wrestling with the "driving years left" calculation for myself, I might justify fitting in one more petrol before going electric/hydrogen/something yet to emerge!

[Wino]

On 11/21/2020 at 8:48 AM, StephenFord said:

If I was the one getting the FREE electric, I'd be all in favour. However, in principal, why would you expect an employer to pay for fuel on your current commute, would you get 'petrol vouchers'? 😁

My old employer even though I was a sub contractor (Utillities) allowed a tank full of diesel every week at no cost. 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

8 minutes ago, Wino said:

My old employer even though I was a sub contractor (Utillities) allowed a tank full of diesel every week at no cost. 

Did you get any taxation problems with this? My company at one time stipulated that new company cars must be handed over to the user with a full tank of fuel. This landed us in bother with HMRC who said it was a benefit in kind and taxable, so it was dropped.

 

[Wino]

4 hours ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

Did you get any taxation problems with this? My company at one time stipulated that new company cars must be handed over to the user with a full tank of fuel. This landed us in bother with HMRC who said it was a benefit in kind and taxable, so it was dropped.

 

No. The fuel was supplied as an unofficial agreement between us. When the company involved moved areas from South Yorkshire to Lincolnshire it was agreed between the company owner and myself and another colleague who worked with me at the time. We used our car(s) to get from home to depot then used works vehicle to carry out our works. 

It worked well as I only used mine for the weekend so had free fuel for almost 15yrs. IIRC think I'd only put £80 worth of fuel in any of our cars during that period. 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

Lol. My company was a bit too big to get away with unofficial arrangements unfortunately, and our Group Taxation Manager liked to keep the right side of the taxman.😀

[StephenFord]

On 11/18/2020 at 12:56 PM, Linds said:

Wow!!! Just 75 signatures so far ... I don't think I'll bother! 

My initial post was done just after the petition was started. It is now just under 5000, and runs for 6 months until beginning of May 2021. Glad not everyone has the "don't think I'll bother" attitude...😁

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/556842

[Eric Bloodaxe]

2 hours ago, StephenFord said:

My initial post was done just after the petition was started. It is now just under 5000, and runs for 6 months until beginning of May 2021. Glad not everyone has the "don't think I'll bother" attitude...😁

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/556842

I read somewhere that there's a calculation done on the results of these things, or letters to MP's etc. Something on the lines of for every one that votes or writes, there's "x" thousand that feel the same way, but can't be bothered!😀 

Edit: I don't particularly like the drafting of this petition which I think is rather narrow and negative and I can see a lot of people not feeling able to support it. I see that another petion, which I feel was much better phrased and called for a fuller consideration of alternatives to electric, was rejected because this one was already running. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Eric Bloodaxe
Extra paragraph

[Linds]

2 hours ago, StephenFord said:

Glad not everyone has the "don't think I'll bother" attitude...😁

 

I feel duly chastised!

[Guy Heaton]

I don't understand why we wouldn't want to get away from fossil fuels.  We can debate in which direction but surely we want cleaner air?

[StephenFord]

4 minutes ago, Guy Heaton said:

I don't understand why we wouldn't want to get away from fossil fuels.  We can debate in which direction but surely we want cleaner air?

We've always, 'wanted' cleaner air, I grew up when issues like 'acid rain', and 'holes in the ozone layer' were very fashionable. The primary objection I have is where governments start dictating. They have form in getting big issues wrong, over & over again. The current government has introduced a policy that was NOT in their manifesto. What was in their manifesto was they would hold a consultation into alternative fueled cars, this consultation was never held but an arbitrary decision was made nonetheless...

You are entirely correct, we should have had a debate in which direction to go, but that debate was never held...

[TomsFocus]

3 hours ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

I don't particularly like the drafting of this petition which I think is rather narrow and negative and I can see a lot of people not feeling able to support it. I see that another petition, which I feel was much better phrased and called for a fuller consideration of alternatives to electric, was rejected because this one was already running. 

I agree, this one reads as if it's been dictated by a toddler!   Can you imagine that getting read out in parliament?

I don't agree with the petition, I'm happy with a 'ban' in 2030*, but it didn't contain a single argument that made me reconsider.  Some people can't afford to runs ICE engined cars now.  Electric cars will be cheaper to buy by then.  They'll still sell the same amount or more as we're not all suddenly going to start walking everywhere and there will be even more people on the planet.  And Covid has already ruined the economy and peoples wellbeing anyway.  No mention of the lack of infrastructure, or the environmental impact of mining metals, or how taxes will be altered to compensate for the lack of fuel sold...all of which are far better arguments than 'some people might not buy new cars'. 

*It won't happen anyway, we'll have a labour government in 2024 and they'll bring it even further forward.  

[StephenFord]

16 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

I agree, this one reads as if it's been dictated by a toddler!   Can you imagine that getting read out in parliament?

 

Tom, this is it's main strength, petitions are designed to get a foot in the door for further debate. An overly complex rhetoric at this stage puts many people off straight away. Many petitions I dealt with when in the public sector consisted of one line.

16 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

...and Covid has already ruined the economy and peoples wellbeing anyway.  No mention of the lack of infrastructure, or the environmental impact of mining detals, or how taxes will be altered to compensate for the lack of fuel sold...all of which are far better arguments than 'some people might not buy new cars'. 

 

I agree, however as in keeping with many 'experts', with those same facts, I have a different opinion. Yes, the economy is f*cked worldwide, hence I believe that nearer the deadline, it will be pushed back as governments will want to stimulate the economy quickly, and ceasing a worldwide 100 year old industry will not be high in that agenda. As with most things with a relative long term deadline (10 years), folk will only get irritated at it on year 8 or 9!

16 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

*It won't happen anyway, we'll have a labour government in 2025 and they'll bring it even further forward.  

I'm sitting here laughing that much, it's now hard to type! OK, I'll not get into a debate wit this one as I fear 'politics' may be banned from this forum, but, I do admire your optimism Tom...😁

[TomsFocus]

2 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

Tom, this is it's main strength, petitions are designed to get a foot in the door for further debate. An overly complex rhetoric at this stage puts many people off straight away. Many petitions I dealt with when in the public sector consisted of one line.

I agree, however as in keeping with many 'experts', with those same facts, I have a different opinion. Yes, the economy is f*cked worldwide, hence I believe that nearer the deadline, it will be pushed back as governments will want to stimulate the economy quickly, and ceasing a worldwide 100 year old industry will not be high in that agenda. As with most things with a relative long term deadline (10 years), folk will only get irritated at it on year 8 or 9!

I'm sitting here laughing that much, it's now hard to type! OK, I'll not get into a debate wit this one as I fear 'politics' may be banned from this forum, but, I do admire your optimism Tom...😁

Haha, I'll eat my hat if we don't go labour next...  The grass is always greener on the other side, people will vote for change over anything else after this term!   

This particular petition would have been better if it had just been one line.  The further details just kept digging a hole imo.  I don't believe people should be signing a petition unless they have a valid reason for doing so.  If they don't know enough about the topic to at least give one solid argument against the proposal then why are they doing it?  

[Mark-UK]

On 11/21/2020 at 4:33 PM, Eric Bloodaxe said:

 Pity governments don't just specify what they want to achieve (e.g. nett zero carbon emissions in this case) and let science/industry come up with solutions, instead of meddling with the how as well (e.g. battery electric cars).
 

Is that not all they have done, said they'll ban new petrol and diesel cars, I don't think they have said it has to be electric, that's just an uniformed media not knowing there are alternatives .