Energy chat, the future of car propulsion

[JW1982]

The electrification of cars is just part of the problem. When I bought my house 15 Years ago the heating and cooking systems were gas powered (like 99% of all houses in the Netherlands). The government stimulates to convert from gas to electricity. I am currently converting from gas to electricity. This however means that the electrical supply to my house needs to be converted from 1x 35A to 3x 25A to handle the increased power demand. My electricity consumption will potentially double within the next Year.
 

I work for a Dutch company that maintains and repairs (large) electric motors, generators and transformers. One of our core businesses is the power generation market and in particular the private power generation market. Most medium/large industrial companies and most greenhouse growers (flowers or vegetables) have there own power supply. This is usually based on natural gas ICE technology or steam / gas turbine technology.

Most private power generation systems do produce a lot more power than there own demand. These systems are usually connected in parallel to the electricity grid and the excess power that is produced is sold to the electrical companies. Some even produce more power than a small size power plant. Burning natural gas is not very environmental friendly at all. To ban ICE technology on cars in onder to reduce emissions governments fully rely on electrical power. However most power grids and power generation systems are not prepared for the extra power demand. I predict that the next 20 to 50 Years the total electric power demand will double or triple. To handle the grown demand the not very environment friendly power generation systems are fully needed to supply the needed power. When the electricity prices go up private power generation may even be lucrative.

At the moment I can not decide whether to buy myself a new car based on ICE technology or keep my Focus MK3 for a few more Years and buy a full electric car.

 

[n_hudson]

1 hour ago, JW1982 said:

The electrification of cars is just part of the problem. When I bought my house 15 Years ago the heating and cooking systems were gas powered (like 99% of all houses in the Netherlands). The government stimulates to convert from gas to electricity. I am currently converting from gas to electricity. This however means that the electrical supply to my house needs to be converted from 1x 35A to 3x 25A to handle the increased power demand. My electricity consumption will potentially double within the next Year.
 

I work for a Dutch company that maintains and repairs (large) electric motors, generators and transformers. One of our core businesses is the power generation market and in particular the private power generation market. Most medium/large industrial companies and most greenhouse growers (flowers or vegetables) have there own power supply. This is usually based on natural gas ICE technology or steam / gas turbine technology.

Most private power generation systems do produce a lot more power than there own demand. These systems are usually connected in parallel to the electricity grid and the excess power that is produced is sold to the electrical companies. Some even produce more power than a small size power plant. Burning natural gas is not very environmental friendly at all. To ban ICE technology on cars in onder to reduce emissions governments fully rely on electrical power. However most power grids and power generation systems are not prepared for the extra power demand. I predict that the next 20 to 50 Years the total electric power demand will double or triple. To handle the grown demand the not very environment friendly power generation systems are fully needed to supply the needed power. When the electricity prices go up private power generation may even be lucrative.

At the moment I can not decide whether to buy myself a new car based on ICE technology or keep my Focus MK3 for a few more Years and buy a full electric car.

 

AND.... The electricity companies are not going to eat the extra costs to improve the network, they've got shareholders and board members to keep happy... 

So all extra cost gets passed on to everyone else USING the network - Electric car or not. What really annoys me, the EU7 regulations etc being forced upon us, yet the rest of the WORLD, USA, RUSSIA and CHINA to name a few don't give a **** and will keep pumping out the toxic fumes for decades past the point of no return. 

THEN the environmental and social impacts of mining the minerals required, the disposal of batteries after they have expired, the gases produced in production and charging, all the plastics... etc... etc...

[michaelburrows]

agree that petrol and diesels are on their way out . its gonna happen .  but for those thinking ill hang on to my petrol or diesel car i reckon the government will have contingency plans.   diesel and petrol will rocket in price making it virtually unaffordable and emissions testing will be taking cars off the road left right and centre.  i think its a case of get used to it coz its gonna happen

[StephenFord]

9 minutes ago, michaelburrows said:

... i think its a case of get used to it coz its gonna happen

The thing I object to is the government intervention. You may not be old enough to remember, but a couple of decades ago, the 'government' announced the saviour of the environment was 'diesel'. At that stage, diesel was about half the price of petrol. They offered huge subsidies for people to buy diesel cars, and as a result, diesel sales soared.

Then, being the government, they realised that now they had an increasing stock on the road, it was a cash cow for fuel tax, so diesel then rose to above the price of petrol. Then of course, everyone realised the whole thing was a mass con, and authorities have been trying to get diesel cars off the road ever since.

Basically, governments are clueless, and once they get involved in stuff like this, you know, banning the ICE and telling us 'battery' is the saviour for the environment - we are all f*cked...

[Eric Bloodaxe]

14 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

. You may not be old enough to remember, but a couple of decades ago, the 'government' announced the saviour of the environment was diesel.

Lol, unfortunately I'm plenty old enough!😀 Yeah, this is why I worry about governments pushing one particular solution. The old Betamax/VHS thing again!

[TomsFocus]

They were right though...diesel produces much lower CO2 emissions than petrol.  CO2 was the main worry for global warming back then.

They all had EGRs by the 00's which was assumed to lower NOx to acceptable levels.  But people bought too many cars so NOx became a much bigger issue.  It was also found to be causing direct human issues, as well as the previously known environmental issues such as acid rain.

And the introduction of precision metered direct diesel injection meant you could no longer see dirty diesel smoke...but was in fact creating minute particulates, invisible to the naked eye, which can get far deeper into the lungs and cause bigger issues later in life.   

We're all learning all the time, and tech can't necessarily keep up with behaviour - such as 2 or 3 car households and too many more people being born.

The only realistic solution is to remove huge numbers of private vehicles from the road, and culling large numbers of the population...  

[StephenFord]

2 minutes ago, TomsFocus said:

 But people bought too many cars ...

and culling large numbers of the population...  

Dam people, how dare they buy cars, lured by glossy TV ads, with new fangled features telling then their current car is obsolete, oh, is there anywhere I can submit a list of people to get started on that cull? LOL 🤣

[Guy Heaton]

Let's face it, what we need is a Thanos snap.  I'm 50, and the population of the world has doubled in my lifetime.

[TomsFocus]

18 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

Dam people, how dare they buy cars, lured by glossy TV ads, with new fangled features telling then their current car is obsolete, oh, is there anywhere I can submit a list of people to get started on that cull? LOL 🤣

Are you suggesting it's McDonalds fault for making people fat by advertising burgers as well?  People need to take responsibility for their actions.  

I do remember the 90s culture of buying tonnes of unnecessary crap and then chucking it into landfill without a second thought.  Using unmetered water like it was going out of fashion just because you weren't paying for it.  Shovelling sugary, fatty, processed food into your face all day as it could be mass produced so cheaply. Driving one kid half a mile to school and back twice a day.  And now people are complaining that these actions have had consequences down the line and trying to blame other people for it!  

Back on topic, there's no fun in driving any more, it's just endless hours of traffic and speed restrictions and potholes and speedhumps and too many dangerous variables in the same place (being allowed to walk or cycle on a 60mph 2 way road is utterly mad imo!)...  It's a whole societal, lifestyle and infrastructure change that needs to happen.  But individually people are selfish arseholes, there's not enough money in the country to pay for all the necessary changes, and the government won't be in long enough to implement anything major.  So we're always just looking for a cheap, short term compromise.   

[StephenFord]

I remember vividly in 1975 visiting my first McDonalds in the USA (they were 10 years away from opening in NI), and seeing outdoor bins overflowing with plastic cups, paper plates, paper bags etc, and asking my mum why they just didn't use proper crockery that they could just wash. Even at that tender age, I was very aware of how waste was effecting my environment.

To some extent (but not all) I do blame advertising for mass consumerism. The fact that many see it as a right to change their mobile phone every year just because the newer one has more pixels is pathetic. My last Nokia phone was 12 years old before I reluctantly replaced as it developed a fault. (These same people think they live a 'green' lifestyle but haven't a clue)

You are right, in general; " people are selfish arseholes ", just think though, if the government spent just a fraction of what they've done this year on treating a germ, we could all have had a 'free' battery car LOL

[StephenFord]

11 minutes ago, Guy Heaton said:

 I'm 50, and the population of the world has doubled in my lifetime.

Wow, you've been busy mate, you should keep it in your pants LOL 😂

[Mark-UK]

22 hours ago, Guy Heaton said:

I just want an electric Focus.

 

Really !    You want an electric car that'll not charge above 79% full because the smart battery thinks that's all you need and then it'll start shutting down systems it hasn't enough charge for .

 

[Guy Heaton]

Hehehe.

I do like that there are cars like the Mini, Pug 208, Corsa, that look and drive normally, but just happen to be electric.  The 208 especially looks pretty good.

Electric makes loads of sense for me.  I'm in IT and even after Covid I will only be physically in work 2 days a week.  I've got a garage I can get a fast charger fitted in.

[StephenFord]

Judging by the amount of issues regularly posted here of Fords stop/start system failing because the on board battery management is atrocious, doesn't bode well for Ford knowing what they're doing when they try and go all electric!

[Eric Bloodaxe]

7 minutes ago, Guy Heaton said:

Electric makes loads of sense for me.  I'm in IT and even after Covid I will only be physically in work 2 days a week.  I've got a garage I can get a fast charger fitted in.

Yeah, despite my reservations about governments jumping for electric with both feet, there are undoubtedly circumstances where it would make sense. My Mrs, for instance, does very little mileage but health issues are affecting her mobility so her little car is very important for her to retain her independence. We can get her car in the garage and an overnight charge from the normal socket would probably do fine. So I'm trying to steer her towards at least thinking about electric when the time comes to replace her car. 

 

[Eric Bloodaxe]

2 minutes ago, StephenFord said:

Judging by the amount of issues regularly posted here of Fords stop/start system failing because the on board battery management is atrocious, doesn't bode well for Ford knowing what they're doing when they try and go all electric!

They have a technology sharing deal with VW so hopefully they'll be using VW platforms, etc, for all electric cars.😀

[Carl123]

54 minutes ago, Guy Heaton said:

I'm in IT and even after Covid I will only be physically in work 2 days a week

 

37 minutes ago, Eric Bloodaxe said:

My Mrs, for instance, does very little mileage

Surely the major benefit of an electric car is how cheap (electricity cost) it is to run compared to a petrol/diesel car

Someone, doing a high milage every week could justify the increased purchase cost of an electric car based on how much running costs are reduced over say, a 2 year period

Doesn't low milage use reduce the appeal of a new electric car verses a petrol/diesel car as far as costs are concerned?

[Guy Heaton]

Not for me.  Low mileage means hopefully no range anxiety.

[Eric Bloodaxe]

2 hours ago, Carl123 said:

Someone, doing a high milage every week could justify the increased purchase cost of an electric car based on how much running costs are reduced over say, a 2 year period

Possibly so, if the range/charging time currently available fits your pattern of use. Back when I was doing big business mileage myself, an electric car would not have worked for me personally.

However in my wife's case it's more a matter of issues caused with an i/c car getting little actual use. 

 

[Mark-UK]

4 minutes ago, Guy Heaton said:

Not for me.  Low mileage means hopefully no range anxiety.

Since being furlough then redundant so now retired in lockdown, pretty sure all EV cars will cover my weekly 5 mile round trip to the shops 😂😓

Probably better selling the car save on Tax and Insurance and just get a Taxi

[StephenFord]

25 minutes ago, Mark-UK said:

..., pretty sure all EV cars will cover my weekly 5 mile round trip to the shops 😂😓
 

I'm sure even a Sinclair C5 would cope with that LOL

[Eric Bloodaxe]

8 hours ago, TomsFocus said:

The only realistic solution is to remove huge numbers of private vehicles from the road, and culling large numbers of the population...  

Lol. But when you think about it many of the problems we have - food shortages, housing shortages, healthcare shortages, power shortages, pollution - you name it, are caused by overpopulation.

No, I'm not advocating a mass cull, but it seems to me if you interfere with nature in one way (as we have, by eliminating many diseases which used to kill millions) then you need to balance that and at least think about interfering in other ways to control population growth.

[Mark-UK]

An on topic piece in our local paper, and something larger companies could do.

 

https://www.chorley-guardian.co.uk/news/environment/should-lancashire-bosses-charge-their-workers-electric-cars-3043164

[StephenFord]

6 hours ago, Mark-UK said:

An on topic piece in our local paper, and something larger companies could do.

 

https://www.chorley-guardian.co.uk/news/environment/should-lancashire-bosses-charge-their-workers-electric-cars-3043164

If I was the one getting the FREE electric, I'd be all in favour. However, in principal, why would you expect an employer to pay for fuel on your current commute, would you get 'petrol vouchers'? 😁

[Mark-UK]

3 hours ago, StephenFord said:

If I was the one getting the FREE electric, I'd be all in favour. However, in principal, why would you expect an employer to pay for fuel on your current commute, would you get 'petrol vouchers'? 😁

I understand where you coming from, but for a medium to large company in the grand scheme of things the cost would be miniscule, and maybe a way legislate, all companies with a private car park over x number of spaces have to provide sockets ( which I thought they would have done by now anyway ).   There are different way to keep employees happy and this could be a low cost one and also help your green credentials .