Ford Injector Issues 1.8 Tdci - Ford Wont Tell You About Them - Must Read

[Denny Mac]

Hi guys.

Was reading the post after having a second injector fail on me yesterday. I had one replaced about 2 years ago at 105k miles by ford main dealer at €600 (a deal he told me). As I was leaving he told me to sell the car or else get the others done as they would all go. I don't to sell the car so i got 2 injectors out of a scraped Mondeo from a guy that I know and trust and threw them in the boot of my car for a rainy day such as today. After reading all the posts and finding out that its the batch with the dreaded number 3 I went and examined all the injectors in mine.

The injectors in the car are all different numbers and I just want to now which is the 3 I'm looking for.

The injector that was replaced by the main dealer is a Siemens with a qr code and underneath it the number 040012

The 3 remaining are also Siemens with a qr code and underneath it the number 050013

The 2 replacement injectors from the old Mondeo are also Siemens but don't have a qr code. They have 2 lines of numbers with the top line being 03030 on both and the bottom line being 04727 and 04221

Which number 3 is the bad batch is what i am looking for.

Thank you

[bigfish]

Hi Alastair,

I read your post with interest and seem to be having the same problem I have already replaced 1 injector at a cost of £500 only to find I am having the same problem again. you point out that this can occur weeks/months apart so it has been a while since the injector was replaced. Could you please forward me any information you have regarding the problem including TSB and PCM. My e-mail address is: kellyhouseholdk@hotmail.com

Many Thanks,

Cecil.

[Tarr7d218]

Cecil, if you Havnt read my post have a read, same for the guy above.

It's safe to say that ALL the injectors from Siemens during that time (injector number ending in 3 as can be read on the barrel)

It's just a matter of time before they break down leading to wrong fuel injection,

It's not worth replacing one as if one has gone then others are on their way out!!

The ONLY reliable way to fix is to change injectors to a different batch, I used a clean set of remanufactured ones (from the 2007 batch) it's been working perfectly ever since!!

[Davey117]

I'm having this EXACT problem (from original post) now with my 2008 Focus 98k miles! Is the PCM upgrade worth trying to avoid injector replacement or am I going to be footing a £1500 bill regardless?

[ajzetecs]

56 minutes ago, Davey117 said:

I'm having this EXACT problem (from original post) now with my 2008 Focus 98k miles! Is the PCM upgrade worth trying to avoid injector replacement or am I going to be footing a £1500 bill regardless?

think the pcm update will just help if there is a calibration issue, think if you injector is naff then will need changing, what issue you having with car, mine is a bit jerky with steady driving around 2k rpm 

[Davey117]

On 3/18/2016 at 1:49 PM, ajzetecs said:

think the pcm update will just help if there is a calibration issue, think if you injector is naff then will need changing, what issue you having with car, mine is a bit jerky with steady driving around 2k rpm 

I get the cut out/engine malfunction when randomly driving down motorways, I also get the shudders quite regular when I'm a couple of hours into a journey and I have to turn the car off before it cuts out on me. Recently I've also struggled to get more than a mile down the road without a couple of malfunctions.. Any ideas?

[Newuser]

I get the exact same issues as the initial poster and most other people here.  A few weeks ago I changed from Sainsbury diesel to BP diesel and the car now runs significantly better.  Still get the odd hiccup but this is extremely rare.  I own a '09 Focus 1.8 Diesel with about 75,000 miles on the clock.

[kdset]

Hi does anyone have an emailable copy of the documnet

The TSB is TSB 27/2012 dated 14/05/12 and affects 1.8L Duratorq-TDCi (Lynx) engines between 2008/2009. It affects the Focus,

 

[pricey71]

I have the exact same symptoms with my C-Max TDCi 58 Plate

Although I can only see aggro, frustration and time wasted in a vain attempt to get some compensation from Ford / Trust Ford workshop / Ford Dealer (Bristol Street Motors) from their sub standard product and awful customer services.. this discussion is really helpful. Many thanks pezza371887

This is my post from Honest Johns Back Room which led me here thanks to Paulsxf, any more support info shared is much appreciated. Thanks

-

My 2008 Ford C Max 1.8TDCi was recovered by AA 12 months ago at 38K mileage, with Injector 4 failure.

Local Ford workshop replaced Injector 3, and all four seals.

Injector 4 failed again three weeks ago and was replaced by Renault workshop in France.

Car continues to cut to limp mode with 'Engine Malfunction', Ford workshop now recommending other two Injector valve replacements based on diagnostics.

Is it likely that when one Injector fails, the other three will fail in quick succession?

[Newuser]

Having similar problems with my '09 1.8L TDCi Focus.  First saw the 'Engine Malfunction' a few years ago and had it several times since.  Fault always clears after turning off for a few minutes.  I noticed car was very jumpy about 3 months ago and so changed from Sainsbury's diesel to BP.  The problem almost completely disappeared so I thought the quality of the diesel was causing the problem.  Unfortunately had an 'Engine Malfunction' incident last week so suspect there is a problem with one of the injectors.  Will get diagnostics carried out this weekend.

 

 

[Tdci-Peter]

4 hours ago, Newuser said:

Unfortunately had an 'Engine Malfunction' incident last week so suspect there is a problem with one of the injectors.  Will get diagnostics carried out this weekend.

It is always worth while getting your own diagnostics scanner. A basic OBD2 one costs from about £10 (eg U480), and is really easy to use. A very comprehensive package called Forscan can be got for £15 on a Windows laptop, but the basic one will identify injector error codes.

A single garage reading can cost £80. And it may take several checks to really pin down a fault. Injectors are not something to change without very good reason!

 

[thegift_guitar]

I too have the dreaded injector issues!

'58 plate Focus 1.8L TDCi - bought second hand in 2013 -75k miles

From the start it had a very occasional (once every 3 months?) hesitation, usually motorway driving, light acceleration. I think twice in the first 2 years i got the engine malfunction light and limp home mode after a particularly bad hesitation. Problem always fixed by restarting the engine, didn't even need to wait more than a few seconds.

This year it escalated a bit, slightly more regular hesitation, then suddenly a couple of 'bouts' of limp home mode (5-6 times in a journey in quick succession) followed by weeks of no issues. Finally decided to get my hands on an OBD tool which showed up the typical injector open-circuit malfunctions (injectors 1 and 2 so far...).

It has now been to the local dealership (Evans Halshaw, Portobello) several times. They eventually recommended the PCM update, after discussion with the mechanic and trying to engage them in conversation about the problems in this thread, asking about the likely hood of a fix and what modification the PCM change actually made (all met with a pretty uninterested responses...) I agreed to pay for 1 hours labour to get the PCM updated.

Drove the car on a typical weekend journey for me the weekend after - Edinburgh to Peebles (A road driving, 45-60 most of the way) - after a reasonably extended period in 5th gear at 60 (5 mins?) the engine cut to limp home mode with no warning, no hesitation. Struggled to restart without getting the engine malfunction straight away. Eventually managed to limp from lay-by to lay-by by restarting the engine over and over to get to a suitable recovery location and had to get recovered back to Edinburgh. Recovery man said no new fault codes interestingly.... I don't have my OBD tool atm so I can't double check. Definitely the same issues though, many hesitations and loss of power even when the engine was running in 'normal' mode trying to get to Peebles (even in 2nd gear!). In my mind the PCM update seems to have made this worse!

So far the dealership have been nothing but difficult to contact, but I suspect when they eventually do bother to let me speak to someone worthwhile they will simply quote me for replacing 4 injectors.

Big question - given the car is worth little more than the cost for the dealership to replace 4 injectors - has anyone had any luck with replacing them themselves? Or can anyone recommend someone in Edinburgh who would be willing to do this work if I buy injectors myself (or work with me to source the older XXXX2 series injectors themselves)? 

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, thegift_guitar said:

has anyone had any luck with replacing them themselves?

Back on page 2 of this topic, Daniel said he did it using good 2nd hand injectors for under £200 !

There are notes about the level of cleanliness & care needed, as this high pressure stuff is very sensitive to microscopic dirt. But it seems it can be done.

[honestsam]

Joined this forum just to report the same issue. I have a Mondeo 09 plate 1.8 TDCI with 106k miles.  Since I've owned it it has only gone into limp mode twice, on long runs.  Both times I restarted the engine and it was better, but the judders remained if you pushed it hard over 2k revs, so it was a case of nursing it.  After the engine had cooled it would be "ok" again.  Mine does however get the judders relatively often, usually in 5th or 6th, sometimes pushing it a bit up hill, sometimes when reapplying accelaration, on a cold engine.  It is crap but just about bearable.

I've read this forum with great interest and got a quote for 3 replacement injectors for just under £1k. The 4th injector had been replaced by the previous owner, just before he got shot of the car, so he obviously had the same problem.  Anyway just wanted to share my experiences as it can be pretty lonely thinking that you are the only one going through this!

As it happens I'm probably going to PX it in for a newer car as I've just got a new job which requires much more commuting so think I should trade up to something a bit more comfortable, automatic and lower mileage. Won't be a Ford though.

[bigfranktheyank]

i have a ford mondeo 2012 with 38,000 miles on it i have had load engine noises since bought . under warranty at 27,000 ford replaced my clutch but not dual mass flywheel under warranty then at end of warranty my steering rack went they replaced that .at end of warranty my DMFW went and burnt out clutch £2200.00 it cost me they said it was not covered under warranty normal wear and tear....now this month my injector went i got an engine warning lite and it died took it to my mechanic . he said 1 injector went and fords said should change all 4 new one replaced now when cold it is like james bond (smoke city )and sounds like a tank taking it to have injectors presssure tested on monday to see what elses is faulty..

 

here is the weird thing my mechanic said the injectors in the car at 38,000 were not from fords so the must have been removed befor 12,000 when i bought the car can anyone help me on who to complain on this

[Tdci-Peter]

3 hours ago, bigfranktheyank said:

my DMFW went and burnt out clutch £2200.00 it cost me they said it was not covered under warranty normal wear and tear.

Hi,

That does not sound like normal wear and tear to me. DMF should last far more than 30k miles. And if changing it reduces the noises you had earlier, then it must have been faulty when they replaced the clutch at 27k. It would be totally wrong, and against Ford procedures, not to check, and replace if needed, the DMF while replacing a clutch.

As for the injectors, do you still have the non-Ford one(s)? Maybe they were a different type for some reason, and the pcm was updated to suit them? If you now have one injector of a different type, it will have some odd effects.

(Strictly speaking, this post is in the wrong topic, the rest of it is specific to the 2008 1.8TDCI bad batch of injectors problem. Perhaps PM alexp999 to get it moved to a new topic?)

[Tdci-Peter]

5 hours ago, honestsam said:

Won't be a Ford though.

The Siemens / VDO mess up with the injectors made around 2008 must be costing Ford (& Ford owners) a huge amount of money.

Quality control obviously went badly wrong. The trouble is, bosses mix up quality control (stopping stuff going wrong) and quality assurance (avoiding the blame when it all goes horribly wrong). Too much of the latter, not enough of the former.

Just seen this: On 28 August 2007, VDO was acquired by Continental AG for €11.4 billion. Take-overs, chaos & quality of critical parts are not a great mix.

[pricey71]

On 30/08/2016 at 1:15 PM, pricey71 said:

I have the exact same symptoms with my C-Max TDCi 58 Plate

Although I can only see aggro, frustration and time wasted in a vain attempt to get some compensation from Ford / Trust Ford workshop / Ford Dealer (Bristol Street Motors) from their sub standard product and awful customer services.. this discussion is really helpful. Many thanks pezza371887

This is my post from Honest Johns Back Room which led me here thanks to Paulsxf, any more support info shared is much appreciated. Thanks

-

My 2008 Ford C Max 1.8TDCi was recovered by AA 12 months ago at 38K mileage, with Injector 4 failure.

Local Ford workshop replaced Injector 3, and all four seals.

Injector 4 failed again three weeks ago and was replaced by Renault workshop in France.

Car continues to cut to limp mode with 'Engine Malfunction', Ford workshop now recommending other two Injector valve replacements based on diagnostics.

Is it likely that when one Injector fails, the other three will fail in quick succession?

I have had to have all four injectors replaced over the course of 12 months - total cost of injector related repair work - £3020.

The car has cut to limp mode numerous times over the last 12 months, as each injector fails in succession, usually during motorway driving, forcing myself, my wife and our children onto the hard shoulder to wait for breakdown recovery - an extremely dangerous place to be with heavy, fast moving traffic literally metres away.

The injectors that were removed, I inspected and photographed, and have a serial number that end in 3,

they are from a faulty batch of injectors that were included in Ford vehicles at manufacture stage.

Ford were aware of these faulty injectors built into their vehicles as they released a TSB technical service bulletin in May 2012 detailing the problem.

I have suffered financially with the huge repair costs, and my family have been put at considerable risk during the numerous breakdowns caused by these faulty injectors.

Ford Customer Care continually issue their automated replies - car is out of warranty, therefore its your problem, not ours.

Despite the fact that we were sold a car by a Ford dealer that was inherently faulty and not fit for purpose.

Awful experience. I'll never buy a Ford again.

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, pricey71 said:

Ford were aware of these faulty injectors built into their vehicles as they released a TSB technical service bulletin in May 2012 detailing the problem.

Ford's nasty habit of secrecy is backfiring on them. Customers do not like being kept in the dark, and are leaving Ford altogether, and giving it a bad reputation. In the USA, things have to be a bit more open, but here secrecy rules.

A summary of this TSB is:

"Ford released a technical bulletin TSB 27/2012 to resolve this issue
The TSB was a software update to a specific level And Was for level 3 injectors (engineering number on injector )
This software update was to resolve excessive combustion noise on the 1.8tdci 08/09 build models "

More details (a practically complete copy) can be found on this site at:

And the software update seemed to cure the noise. Nothing about total injector failure. From this it is not possible to say if Ford were aware that premature failure was likely.

These injectors are now 8 years old, may have done 100k miles or more. No injectors last forever, and lots of expensive parts can fail in that time. DPFs, DMFs, diesel pumps, cylinder heads just as a few examples. No manufacturer will warrant parts that long without a hefty initial price hike as insurance.

I think the important, positive information to take from this thread is that if an injector starts failing, with DTCs like:

Injector circuit malfunction -4

Cylinder No 4 Injector circuit open/shorted,

and it is 2008/9 with level number 3,

Then it would be advisable to get quotes from a few reputable companies to replace all four. It will be cheaper than doing them one at a time. Or sell the car to someone able to take on the work.

[pricey71]

Sound advice Tdci-Peter,

however in my experience I always felt like there wasn't a problem with the mechanics and the workings of the injectors, it was more like communication between the sensors and the injectors - after cutting to limp mode, and restarting the engine, the car would drive for 500 yards sometimes, other times it would drive for 500 miles before cutting to limp mode again.

Before cutting to limp mode, the engine would stutter, as if there was an air lock in the system, or the sensors were not fueling the injectors correctly. There was no pattern to when the malfunction would occur, we've had it in slow moving traffic, from start up, after long distance driving, etc. but more often it would be in the summer months with warmer air temps, on the motorway, accelerating from 4th to 5th, on an incline.

The AA and RAC recovery technicians have always questioned the electronics and circuitry because the mechanics of the running engine look and sound good.

Ford workshop have always insisted on replacing the injectors based on their diagnostics.

If this was a fault due to wear / age I think i'd be able to accept being out of pocket by £3k, but this is from an inherent problem from when car was manufactured.

We bought the car from a Ford dealer, with a full history in the service book.

At no point have Ford customer care / Ford dealer / Ford workshop told us about the faulty injector batch, or suggested we have all four replaced at the same time, which would have made more sense financially, and mechanically for the engine running efficiency.

 

 

[iantt]

if your not happy with your ford, dont buy buy a peugeot, renault, citroen, landrover, mini, etc in diesel flavour, or any diesel really. they all have injectors failing , no different to a ford. the joys of common rail.

[pricey71]

My C-Max started its engine malfunctions and cutting to limp mode at only 35K mileage! The first injector was replaced at 38K, the other three replaced at 47K miles.

I cant believe this is the expectation of modern diesel engines from Ford, or peugeot, renault, citroen, landrover, mini, etc.

More likely to be caused from faulty parts at manufacture as the info on this thread suggests.
 

[JW1982]

Many other car manufacturers suffer from the same kind of problems on their diesel engines.

These days the quality of the diesel fuel is also a point of concern. The chemical composition of diesel fuel changed within the last few years. Next to this governments demand from fuel manufacturers to add a certain amount of bio fuel. The current diesel fuel has less lubricating components. This causes the high pressure fuel pump and the fuel injectors to wear prematurely.

As a matter of fact the current diesel engines are no longer bulletproof and will not nearly last as long as the old indirect injected diesel engines.

 

Technically there is nothing wrong with the batch of fuel injectors that are used on the 1.8 TDCI built between 07/2008-12/2009. These fuel injectors are within their technical specifications. The only problem is that the initial software of the 1.8 TDCI did not work very well with these fuel injectors. This has been solved by Ford by releasing different software. Many 1.8 TDCI engines have the same fuel injectors and still run without any problems.

My experience is that fuel injector issues are usually caused by worn injector components. In many cases the fuel injectors can be overhauled and tested by a specialist. However new fuel injectors are often cheaper than an overhaul of the existing fuel injectors. 

 

 

[iantt]

a few manufacurers are considering stopping production of diesel cars, due to the ever increasing costs and complexity of systems to ensure low emmisions, economy, performance demands . i saw somewhere that sales of diesel cars were slowing down now and petrol cars coming back in to favour due to there increasing economy.

[pricey71]

Interesting points, however in our case BP Ultimate diesel as recommended by Ford, or Shell V-Power while driving on the continent, didn’t save the injectors in my C-Max from their eventual need for replacement, after only 38K mileage.

I agree with JW1982 point on the fuel injector performance probably maybe required just a software update, in an earlier post I mentioned I felt there was a problem with the communication between the electronics and sensors, and the mechanics of the injectors, as if the injectors weren’t being fuelled correctly.

I explained this at the workshop, however Trust Ford (-and Renault, after breakdown in France) just wanted to replace the injectors based on their diagnostics.

Anyway, I’ve got three newly re-conditioned injectors from Trust Ford, and one from Renault, a big hole in my pocket, and the car runs fine now. Which, for me substantiates the points made in the initial post regarding the batch of faulty injectors.

 

This won’t be the reason i’ll be leaving Ford though, the whole Ford package from manufacture to dealer, workshop to customer services has been truly awful in my experience.

Poor quality manufacturing and build, Ford Customer ‘Care’ with their automated responses and refusal to help or advise their customers who have experienced problems, even after being stranded on a motorway hard shoulder with my children for the 8th time because of their faulty product.

To the Ford dealer who was more interested in selling financial packages and gap insurances etc etc, rather than providing us with useful and correct information about the car.

Bad information, wrong information, withheld information at sale and repair, to the ‘Trust’ Ford workshop whose best piece of advice was ‘..don’t believe everything you read on the internet’, you own a diesel what do you expect, here’s another invoice for £700….. and charging for work that was under warranty from previous repairs…!!! I’m still waiting for the promised refund cheque 21 days later.

The car went into Trust Ford for a full tech diagnostics and electrical investigation twice, on the second occasion it was in for a week, but the workshop couldn’t get the fault to come back, despite a 150 mile test drive (-which they offered to replace the used fuel with diesel from Sainsburys). So they returned the car to me.. 10 miles along the North Circular - BANG - engine malfunction, again…… stranded on the North Circular with trucks etc. flying past at 50++

Over 12 months, the engine cut to limp mode multiple times in fast moving traffic on the M25, M11, M5, A12, the E15 Paris Gyratory, etc etc. the absolute worst places to be stranded with a young family, yet Ford Customer ‘Care' continued to issue their automated responses regarding our concerns - cars out of warranty, therefore its not our problem.

 

so Trading Standards and Sale Of Goods Act next then…

and back to original post and thread, here’s the link to the TSB 27/2012 if you need it, and thanks pezza371887 and all the other kind people who take time out to offer advice and info on this forum

http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/topic/61590-2008-focus-tsb/#comment-408619