Unfit To Drive/drunk In Charge Of A Vehicle

[The Dark Knight]

In answer to gregers, Clive speaks from the officers view but intent to drive or lack thereof isn't the key. The defendant must show no likelihood of driving if it is shown that he is both over the limit and in charge.

[Stoney871]

It is not within the remit of a Police Officer to decide the nuances of the law, only to use their warranted powers of arrest to place into custody a person that is committing a crime (or may by their inaction be allowed to commit a crime whether knowingly or not).

The Officer will then provide the relevant evidence on which the CPS/ Lawyers / Courts will deliberate and make their judgements.

It is not the remit of the Police to judge or punish, only to bring offenders to law.

[Ianb]

Gregers, on the first page of this I have given an insight into something I was involved in; albeit as a passenger...

I think a lot really relies on the policeman.. It's not the same type of incident but it shows the potential flexibility...

I would personally think that sleeping in the car is more risky, the officer could take the view that 'yes you're sleeping in the car and not driving it' but what happens when you wake up? Are you sleeping in the car because you know damn well you'd have no chance of getting home in the car in one piece, so you're having a kip for a couple hours until you feel 'ok enough to drive'? Etc etc... Very difficult to sway a policemans mind on that I'd imagine...

[SeanW]

Righty oh...note to self

Next time you stumble out the pub at half past 9, having had 2 shandies and a glass of wine, and you realise that your house keys are in the glovebox, approach the conveniently located Copper (assume for this that the officer in question isn't Clive, but is female), and in best Soberese ask "Offi-*hic*shur! Would you do me a favour? Be a darl and grab us me keys - I don't wanna *hic* - you have pretty eyes - *hic* get locked up for being in charge of a motor veee*hic*le whist *sobs*dr, drk...pished*sniffle*"

Then wait an hour for your taxi before realising you never ordered one

Sorry, but the thread is pretty heavy reading lol

Needed something to break it up lol

[Stoney871]

Simplest answer-

If you're going out for a swift half leave the car at home.

A taxi is far cheaper than the penalties for DIC/DUI.

[The Dark Knight]

It gets that way with legal business sometimes Sean. I spent 4 long years at University, 2 nights per week 6-9 after work. Subjects like Public Law and Equity and Trusts were very heavy and make this topic look like light reading.

Interesting to go over the subject at this time of year though and drunk in charge is not as well known as driving under the influence. Waiting for an hour for a taxi you haven't ordered rings true though lol

[The Dark Knight]

P.S, the above appeal I mentioned from 2003, succeeded at first but then the Attorney General got involved and it was overturned by the House of Lords. If you ever see an AG's reference in a case citation, it means something big has gone amiss.

[Ianb]

I really enjoyed law, unfortunately my timetabling got screwed up and I couldn't realistically continue to study it - 1 night a week for 3 hours is NOT enough time!!!

Actually interesting point regarding drinking and driving and penalty reductions, I believe the course one has to do to get a reduction in sentence for drink driving is over a period of 3 weeks - As far as I am aware most people tend to think its a few hours.

A chap I have working for us fell into this trap... He's found out that the 12 days he left himself before the deadline for course completion is not enough, he's now licence less until July.

Sent via carrier pigeon using Ford OC

[SeanW]

I know what you mean!!

We cover certain aspects of shipping law - throw in some stability, bit of navigation (including celestial) to the mix as well (half of shipping laws refer to the conduct of vessels at sea, including carriage requirements. The other half is business...yaaawwwnnn lol). There is a load of other stuff that isn't quite so closely tied with the law - well...not directly

Truth be told, 80% of it doesn't affect 3/O's. Buuut, it's been decided we might as well do the theory upto Chief Mate and start on the Master Mariner theory too!!

Roll on June lol

[Ianb]

2 ways of looking at that Sean... (If it's a company you work for and not the RN). Could be argued its knowledge and that is extremely important for all, or that the company is looking for ways to wipe its hands clean if any problems occur. When I worked in a bookies the manager had to visually inspect the outside of the building and sign that he had done so.. This came about because someone was killed when a sign fell on them... What does the manager of a bookies know about how signs are fixed on or how buildings stand up... If it goes wrong he/she is to blame... Scary shtufff!

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[SeanW]

I'm not RN, but I do work for them! The course I'm doing is intended to fast-track us through our careers. It's just that a lot of the business stuff doesn't really affect us as sailors - the course is designed for land-based roles within the shipping industry too.

There's also the aspects of training that are just plain out of date, and will never, ever be used in anger (because when everything has failed to that extent - either a) you're screwed anyway or b) you won't be allowed to leave port)

[Phil 87]

I've always thought this was a strange law, I suppose it's a good thing because it gives police power to stop someone from driving drunk before they can start the car, even if some innocent people are arrested.

I'm no law expert, but for a crime to be committed doesn't there have to be an injured party or something like that? If someone is innocently sleeping in the back of their car after a night of drinking, they aren't hurting anyone. Or is it that their altered state of mind supposedly makes it more likely that they will drive home even if they didn't plan to? And if that's the case shouldn't it be an offence to be "drunk in possession of car keys"? lol

[Stoney871]

The specific term is Drunk In Charge.

If you are in or near the car whilst unfit to drive while under the influence then you are deemed in charge of that vehicle.

If you are merely placing something in the car or removing something then discretion applies, if you get into the vehicle then look out.

[The Dark Knight]

I've always thought this was a strange law, I suppose it's a good thing because it gives police power to stop someone from driving drunk before they can start the car, even if some innocent people are arrested.

I'm no law expert, but for a crime to be committed doesn't there have to be an injured party or something like that? If someone is innocently sleeping in the back of their car after a night of drinking, they aren't hurting anyone. Or is it that their altered state of mind supposedly makes it more likely that they will drive home even if they didn't plan to? And if that's the case shouldn't it be an offence to be "drunk in possession of car keys"? lol

In criminal offences where there is no victim in the same sense that there is for an assault or theft, it is a crime against the state. The state is the victim. Drunk and disorderly, S.5 public order (S.4 is where an individual is the victim from memory), affray (causing people of reasonable firmness to fear violence - something like that)

[Phil 87]

In criminal offences where there is no victim in the same sense that there is for an assault or theft, it is a crime against the state. The state is the victim. Drunk and disorderly, S.5 public order (S.4 is where an individual is the victim from memory), affray (causing people of reasonable firmness to fear violence - something like that)

Thanks for clearing that up, it makes perfect sense now. I guess it's a lot like being drunk and disorderly in that it can cause fear in other people, and there is potential for other crimes to be committed.

Would it be down to the discretion of a police officer, for example if someone like me with no previous contact with police decided to sleep in my car after a night out? I've considered doing this before but would think twice now.

Also does it make a difference if you're parked on a public road or private land (i.e. a car park)?

[Stoney871]

Private land to which the public have unrestricted access will still be covered by the same law.

Private land to which public access is restricted (by security, fences or other means of access control) are not, however Government or military land tends to be covered by the Road Traffic Act (1991) by choice.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/40/contents

This also covers such things as driving on private land without a valid MOT, Full / provisional driving licence or road tax.

[Ianb]

Thanks for clearing that up, it makes perfect sense now. I guess it's a lot like being drunk and disorderly in that it can cause fear in other people, and there is potential for other crimes to be committed.

Would it be down to the discretion of a police officer, for example if someone like me with no previous contact with police decided to sleep in my car after a night out? I've considered doing this before but would think twice now.

Also does it make a difference if you're parked on a public road or private land (i.e. a car park)?

I'm no PO however as I was typing my last comment it dawned on me the problem of "I was just sleeping in my car for the night officer" - As I said, how would that officer know that you'd wait until you were completely sober before driving, again, perhaps you stumbled and fumbled your way to the car with the intentions of driving back hammered but instead you had a moment of semi clarity "I'll sleep for a couple hours then I won't be AS drunk"....

[Phil 87]

Yeah I agree, it's a balance between occasionally arresting someone who isn't really doing anything wrong, and possibly saving a lot of lives by catching the drunk drivers before they hurt anyone.

[The Dark Knight]

Funny you should mention private land. In Moore v DPP [2010] EWHC 1822 the defendant was convicted of attempting to drive a motor vehicle in a public place whilst intoxicated contrary to S.5(1)(a) of the Road Traffic Act 1988. The defendant appealed on the basis that where the police stopped him wasn’t on the public road but the High Court held that it was an attempt to drive on the public road. The key element of this case was that the defendant had actually driven towards the road and was only metres from it when stopped by police. Therefore, the attempt was sufficiently close to the substantive offence. Basically he had gone beyond merely preparatory as per the Criminal Attempts Act 1981.

[Stoney871]

One of my friends is a copper with the MoD.

If they catch someone driving while unfit on MoD land or military bases (within fenced land but not garrisons with public roads passing through) they can only take the keys away and make the driver collect the keys when sober.

If they see them (or a reliable witness sees them) drive from public roads onto MoD premises where security measures are in place only then can the Officers arrest them.

[Phil 87]

If they see them (or a reliable witness sees them) drive from public roads onto MoD premises where security measures are in place only then can the Officers arrest them.

I thought you were going to say they would be shot lol.

[Stoney871]

I thought you were going to say they would be shot lol.

MoD Police couldn't hit a cows !Removed! with a banjo ;)

[MattDRX]

So just to resurrect this Clive, if I get battered one night, which is rare for me anyway, sleep in the car but unlocked and the keys outside the car on top of the wheel or something, stashed under the car, then what? Xmas party soon.

[Phil 87]

Xmas party soon.

This is what made me ask about this too, but I already booked a hotel room so no need to worry :). Although that cost me £70 whereas sleeping the car is free.

[MattDRX]

Lol I'm in a classy travelodge for £38 Inc breakfast. Guildford ftw